Refinement for the Visibility Calculations

Refinement for the Visibility Calculations
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This idea/suggestion is Open. You can respond to ask questions or discuss the idea and either vote it up or down if you believe it should or should not be implemented, respectively. Popular suggestions and ideas will be considered by the development team to become reality in-game.
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Solitary

Proposal
Modify the Visibility gain system so that only NPCs that would honestly have a problem with a Jedi report them.
Justification
I set up a camp, only to have my camp's junk dealer immediately report me.
I'm running through an area where their are Rebel forces and Imperial forces and I get reported by ALL of them on BOTH sides...
Would a Nightsister, Spiderclan, and Singing Mountain Clan (who I keep a good standing with) really report me? I would think they'd want to keep a low profile since they are force users themselves.
There are plenty of other instances where I think an NPC shouldn't report.
Motivation
I have a very strong aversion to PvP, I've had way to many negative experience over the last 27 or 28 years. The only time my Jedi has gotten a bounty was when I didn't know grouping with other Jedi's greatly increased visiblity gains. I didn't fight and I avoid humanoids on my Jedi at all costs.

It is my limited understanding that Instances have become a nearly Jedi only endeavor and that when you finish an instance you will have a bounty on you every time. I'd like to be able to participate in some of the instances but not at the expense of being targeted after each one.
Restoration has made some Excellent additions and improvements to SWG. One thing I'd like to see changed is the current visibility system.
 
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This comes up from time to time so here goes again.

Reporting is not just that someone "saw" you per se but also rumours about activity as well. So and so talked to so and about did you see and so on.

Next and this is from another PV - According to the lore in this game's time and age, Jedi are almost nonexistent and are hunted, hated, and shunned by the vast majority of the population.

As for the Heroics your information is wrong except for possibly EK. I know of 3 Jedi running TK, IG and AM without the boards. It is a choice to stop and clear visibility or go on and get on the boards. Also Heroics are not just Jedi only and plenty of people run them with their normies.

You really should read up on the visibility wiki page for an understanding of how you get it and get rid of it. Yes both rebel and imperial will and should report you.

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Well, I do appreciate the reasonable tone of the responses. If it comes to it, I'll go back to being a Creature Handler/Doctor to avoid PvP. I'm probably a terrible Jedi by most people's standard but when I can go toe-to-toe with 20 critters (literally) without major risk and my next best character can take perhaps 5 at once...

As for heroics, I don't know anyone that runs them now so I'll have to learn.
 
Pretty much all I do is pvp, but I also think this mechanic is fried lmao. Tell me how undead creatures are spreading those same rumours and communicating the visibility? How about Sher Kar? There are so many examples where the rumour-mill explanation just doesn't work.
 
I totally agree with the idea that life for jedis should be hard and that the galaxy would be hostile to them. However, I agree that there's probably nuance to that from a realism perspective. Not everyone would want to report a jedi to the empire, probably. And if that can be sorted out in a way that's satisfying and immersive then it feels like a positive. I don't think that goes against what's been said in the past by Aconite.
 
C9KALA said:
Pretty much all I do is pvp, but I also think this mechanic is fried lmao. Tell me how undead creatures are spreading those same rumours and communicating the visibility? How about Sher Kar? There are so many examples where the rumour-mill explanation just doesn't work.
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Lightsaber or lightning burns on the spiderling/zombie corpses someone finds?

But at the end of the day we are in a fictional world in a video game so some willing suspension of disbelief is required or you can BS an explanation for anything. Pick your poison.
 
C9KALA said:
Pretty much all I do is pvp, but I also think this mechanic is fried lmao. Tell me how undead creatures are spreading those same rumours and communicating the visibility? How about Sher Kar? There are so many examples where the rumour-mill explanation just doesn't work.
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Well as one Senator pointed out in the forums why these were left to report:

This was because people would use the zombies to respin hilariously fast on Jedi. Like, an hour respin time

They did or at least were going to do some of the individual npcs rather than mass groups.
 
How are we getting this every week?
You knew what you signed up for as jedi - thats why you have an additional character slot.
Its been clearly stated that the system is supposed to be very punishing.

Why keep trying to make it easier.

Also if you dont like PvP, dont play a Jedi - This isnt a MMORPG that gives you selective safe space when it comes to that unless you decide to play neutral - non jedi character - It has never been. Otherwise deal with it.
 
Jylin said:
How are we getting this every week?
You knew what you signed up for as jedi - thats why you have an additional character slot.
Its been clearly stated that the system is supposed to be very punishing.

Why keep trying to make it easier.

Also if you dont like PvP, dont play a Jedi - This isnt a MMORPG that gives you selective safe space when it comes to that unless you decide to play neutral - non jedi character - It has never been. Otherwise deal with it.
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I play a Jedi because the character is so much more powerful than my other characters. I have yet to adapt the large batch of combat changes that were made "a while ago" so even my Bounty Hunter/Creature Handler is cannon fodder compared to my Jedi. I am fully aware of the PvP aspects of Jedi and I take steps to avoid getting a bounty. If I get a bounty, I'll run around in my underwear until someone kills me then I'll do something else for 18 hours.

Your statement at the end of your post is one reason I object to PvP, telling me to "deal with it" dismisses me, my opinions, and my experience as irrelevant. Many of the PvPers that I've run into over the years have been just plain Vile. I choose to play in a way that avoids having to interact with the vileness. I've been playing SWG since the last Beta in 2003, I can adjust, if PvP becomes unavoidable as a Jedi, my character will go back to being a doctor/creature handler that day. Just as an aside, I stood at the northern outpost on Yavin and watched people beat on a character that had four full rows of buffs + 1, they beat on him for 15 minutes and couldn't kill him, I took a screenshot and left.

I don't think there was anything that violates canon or is game breaking or unreasonable or "off the wall" in what I suggested. I personally think, based on my limited knowledge of the lore, that Rebel troops would NOT report a Jedi, after all some of their highest ranking folks are known Jedi. I don't think undead or nightsisters or Spiderclan or Singing Mountain Clan (who will actually fight on my side if I'm fighting Nightsisters) run around with radios to contact their local Imperial representative every time a Jedi runs by with a buff on. And the Junk Dealer in my camp most certainly shouldn't report me. If I run through Theed swinging my saber and throwing lightning bolts, that's a different story.
 
Solitary said:
I play a Jedi because the character is so much more powerful than my other characters. I have yet to adapt the large batch of combat changes that were made "a while ago" so even my Bounty Hunter/Creature Handler is cannon fodder compared to my Jedi. I am fully aware of the PvP aspects of Jedi and I take steps to avoid getting a bounty. If I get a bounty, I'll run around in my underwear until someone kills me then I'll do something else for 18 hours.

Your statement at the end of your post is one reason I object to PvP, telling me to "deal with it" dismisses me, my opinions, and my experience as irrelevant. Many of the PvPers that I've run into over the years have been just plain Vile. I choose to play in a way that avoids having to interact with the vileness. I've been playing SWG since the last Beta in 2003, I can adjust, if PvP becomes unavoidable as a Jedi, my character will go back to being a doctor/creature handler that day. Just as an aside, I stood at the northern outpost on Yavin and watched people beat on a character that had four full rows of buffs + 1, they beat on him for 15 minutes and couldn't kill him, I took a screenshot and left.

I don't think there was anything that violates canon or is game breaking or unreasonable or "off the wall" in what I suggested. I personally think, based on my limited knowledge of the lore, that Rebel troops would NOT report a Jedi, after all some of their highest ranking folks are known Jedi. I don't think undead or nightsisters or Spiderclan or Singing Mountain Clan (who will actually fight on my side if I'm fighting Nightsisters) run around with radios to contact their local Imperial representative every time a Jedi runs by with a buff on. And the Junk Dealer in my camp most certainly shouldn't report me. If I run through Theed swinging my saber and throwing lightning bolts, that's a different story.
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Yes but you can stay off the boards by managing your visibility. You want it relaxed and that is fine but you are ignoring the fact of the timeline and that it is not strictly reporting by that exact npc as has been explained by numerous people over time. You are purposely choosing to ignore this. If anything vis should be increased outside of instances not decreased so people can have their cake and eat it too. You are hunted, hated, and shunned by the vast majority of the population and reports and even rumours of FS is enough.

There are a number of people who don't end up on the boards. If you click accept to become a Jedi it means you accept that you have to change your playstyle to fit, not the other way around. Learn to use the system or make a choice not to. It is that easy. You have 3 other alts you can use for stuff as well.
 
I don't disagree with this one on paper. It's silly that karlings and zombies "report" Jedi, and if anything maybe you should get a notice that "your actions have not gone unnoticed" versus zombies hurling insults at you for immersions' sake.

But I must agree that the lore of the time period in which this game is set means Jedi are enemies of the state, and therefore should be careful about where they draw their saber.

Maybe that junk dealer you thought was an ally sees what you're holding; all they have is years of propaganda that tells you you're the enemy. Those witches on Dathomir may not be reporting you, but the distant observer watching you fight them might. Credits are credits, after all, and the promise of a reward, Imperial favor, or maybe a little heat off their own back might be enough to turn you in.
 
I feel like there's a communication barrier here. To me it sounds like one side is asking for more immersion and the other side is worried that more immersion is less hostile. I think Eiderman's on the right track for sort of marrying the two together so I want to expand on that a bit with some ideas.

First, "...even rumors of FS is enough." - don't disagree with this? But it sounds like some of this rumor stuff is a bit ridiculous to the point of feeling like magic and so making some improvements to how a rumor gets brought up and reported in behind the scenes NPC logic isn't necessarily a bad thing and doesn't automatically make things easier. So, as a solution proposal, how about a chance encounter wherein, like with foraging, while in the wild a named NPC can appear and begin fleeing while screaming about a jedi. Maybe give the target player like 5 seconds to react to this or they call it in on a comm.
Two possible outcomes:
- The jedi player attacks the NPC. No immediate increase to their exposure, but once they return to with 100m of a town or starport the report gets called in by some investigators who suspect them and they get a normal visibility increase
- The jedi player ignores or is unable to catch the NPC in time. The report gets called in and the jedi player immediately gets that visibility increase and maybe a little extra (1.5x?) because the NPC was able to positively ID them.
Some system like this can help in that it allows for a visibility report to come in anywhere at any time in a way that doesn't feel weird or random. The player is given a chance to mitigate some of it, but it's not entirely avoidable. It is not an every time occurrence, but it's enough that there is always a danger. Something like this allows for a more immersive environment while not reducing the dangers presented to being a jedi in this "hostile world."

Second, "...Jedi are enemies of the state," this is true, but not everyone is for the state. For example, the Rebel Alliance appears to be opposed to the state. That doesn't mean that they are necessarily pro-jedi, but I can't imagine Princess Leia calling up Darth Vader to report a Jedi. So, this system needs some refinement, maybe.
I think this can be done with some fun math and with the help of the reputation system. Additionally, some other small things like the report going in to a bounty hunter group rather than the empire direct. That way it feels a little less odd to call in the empire. And then an imperial agent might report up the chain regarding interesting bounties on mysterious jedis on the bounty boards for immersion behind the scenes, I don't know, this part isn't all that important. I don't doubt the empire could get relatively public information.

But for the math side, the important side, I think it might make sense that all NPCs have a hidden stat that is something like "likeliness to report," which then adds an interesting layer that can be combined with the reputation system.

If a townsperson sees a jedi, for example, then a calculation would be made. Let's say this townsperson is 50% chance of reporting a jedi, just off the bat. So they might call it in, they might not. We can see that as a total mystery as to whether or not they obey the law as a person. But then, say this player has high townsperson standing. So, maybe the likeliness to report goes down. Maybe now it's a 30% chance because this townsperson knows that this jedi is a helper to townspeople. Or say the player has high thug faction standing and low townsperson. Maybe that likeliness shoots up to 90%.

It's not all that complex, but it's a bit more interesting than just "always all the time" and this helps with things like a camp junk dealer. If they report, it can be inferred that they harboured ill-will towards a jedi and if not well maybe they don't care all that much or have a history. I mean we can't know EVERYTHING but it adds a bit of room to have imagination while not removing dangers and making the world feel less static.

It makes sense for the world to be hostile, but I think it also makes sense for the world to feel more alive and follow a logical pattern in presenting that hostility.
 
LoppYasaburo said:
I feel like there's a communication barrier here. To me it sounds like one side is asking for more immersion and the other side is worried that more immersion is less hostile. I think Eiderman's on the right track for sort of marrying the two together so I want to expand on that a bit with some ideas.

First, "...even rumors of FS is enough." - don't disagree with this? But it sounds like some of this rumor stuff is a bit ridiculous to the point of feeling like magic and so making some improvements to how a rumor gets brought up and reported in behind the scenes NPC logic isn't necessarily a bad thing and doesn't automatically make things easier. So, as a solution proposal, how about a chance encounter wherein, like with foraging, while in the wild a named NPC can appear and begin fleeing while screaming about a jedi. Maybe give the target player like 5 seconds to react to this or they call it in on a comm.
Two possible outcomes:
- The jedi player attacks the NPC. No immediate increase to their exposure, but once they return to with 100m of a town or starport the report gets called in by some investigators who suspect them and they get a normal visibility increase
- The jedi player ignores or is unable to catch the NPC in time. The report gets called in and the jedi player immediately gets that visibility increase and maybe a little extra (1.5x?) because the NPC was able to positively ID them.
Some system like this can help in that it allows for a visibility report to come in anywhere at any time in a way that doesn't feel weird or random. The player is given a chance to mitigate some of it, but it's not entirely avoidable. It is not an every time occurrence, but it's enough that there is always a danger. Something like this allows for a more immersive environment while not reducing the dangers presented to being a jedi in this "hostile world."

Second, "...Jedi are enemies of the state," this is true, but not everyone is for the state. For example, the Rebel Alliance appears to be opposed to the state. That doesn't mean that they are necessarily pro-jedi, but I can't imagine Princess Leia calling up Darth Vader to report a Jedi. So, this system needs some refinement, maybe.
I think this can be done with some fun math and with the help of the reputation system. Additionally, some other small things like the report going in to a bounty hunter group rather than the empire direct. That way it feels a little less odd to call in the empire. And then an imperial agent might report up the chain regarding interesting bounties on mysterious jedis on the bounty boards for immersion behind the scenes, I don't know, this part isn't all that important. I don't doubt the empire could get relatively public information.

But for the math side, the important side, I think it might make sense that all NPCs have a hidden stat that is something like "likeliness to report," which then adds an interesting layer that can be combined with the reputation system.

If a townsperson sees a jedi, for example, then a calculation would be made. Let's say this townsperson is 50% chance of reporting a jedi, just off the bat. So they might call it in, they might not. We can see that as a total mystery as to whether or not they obey the law as a person. But then, say this player has high townsperson standing. So, maybe the likeliness to report goes down. Maybe now it's a 30% chance because this townsperson knows that this jedi is a helper to townspeople. Or say the player has high thug faction standing and low townsperson. Maybe that likeliness shoots up to 90%.

It's not all that complex, but it's a bit more interesting than just "always all the time" and this helps with things like a camp junk dealer. If they report, it can be inferred that they harboured ill-will towards a jedi and if not well maybe they don't care all that much or have a history. I mean we can't know EVERYTHING but it adds a bit of room to have imagination while not removing dangers and making the world feel less static.

It makes sense for the world to be hostile, but I think it also makes sense for the world to feel more alive and follow a logical pattern in presenting that hostility.
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They have made some adjustments in the past to some npcs reporting. As for the rumours piece that was broughtalso mentioned by a dev so it is not "magic" and funny enough when Ben and Luke look at the Sandcrawler Luke thinks it is sand people but corrects him and says it was the empire. If it was lightsaber marks instead of blaster marks...

Anyways you can argue both sides of this forever with just making up stuff like they would for x reason and would not for Y reason. Anything that lowers the current vis is going to be bad. The system is not perfect and needs tuning but not to make it lower. Also right now BH do get called in first they just do not always find them in time.

Edit: I also would want to wait and see what they do with Knight and FRS before messing with this.
 
Tyr said:
They have made some adjustments in the past to some npcs reporting. As for the rumours piece that was broughtalso mentioned by a dev so it is not "magic" and funny enough when Ben and Luke look at the Sandcrawler Luke thinks it is sand people but corrects him and says it was the empire. If it was lightsaber marks instead of blaster marks...

Anyways you can argue both sides of this forever with just making up stuff like they would for x reason and would not for Y reason. Anything that lowers the current vis is going to be bad. The system is not perfect and needs tuning but not to make it lower. Also right now BH do get called in first they just do not always find them in time.

Edit: I also would want to wait and see what they do with Knight and FRS before messing with this.
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"If it was lightsaber marks instead of blaster marks..."
I would contend that not everyone can distinguish the two, especially if lightsabers are rare. Additionally, not everyone does a full inspection when they see a corpse, but I could buy them calling in authorities maybe. However, it still begs the question, how did they know it was whoever did it? That's really the issue I have and just because a system has been looked at once, it doesn't mean it can't be improved further, right?

So once again, because I feel like you're not hearing me, I'm not advocating for less, I am suggesting that the systems in place could be improved to make more sense. That seems to be the spirit of this Player Voice, does it not? Yes, it asks for less NPC reporting, but not to reduce the chances of visibility but instead because in some cases, reporting is such a stretch and a reach it makes no contextual sense. Contextual reasons for reporting can exist. Why not make that happen?
 
LoppYasaburo said:
"If it was lightsaber marks instead of blaster marks..."
I would contend that not everyone can distinguish the two, especially if lightsabers are rare. Additionally, not everyone does a full inspection when they see a corpse, but I could buy them calling in authorities maybe. However, it still begs the question, how did they know it was whoever did it? That's really the issue I have and just because a system has been looked at once, it doesn't mean it can't be improved further, right?

So once again, because I feel like you're not hearing me, I'm not advocating for less, I am suggesting that the systems in place could be improved to make more sense. That seems to be the spirit of this Player Voice, does it not? Yes, it asks for less NPC reporting, but not to reduce the chances of visibility but instead because in some cases, reporting is such a stretch and a reach it makes no contextual sense. Contextual reasons for reporting can exist. Why not make that happen?
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Yes I am hearing and we are talking past each other. I just said we can argue both sides forever with making up stuff. You counter with "are rare" and then the ad nauseam argument goes on with me saying well that would be even more suspicious and curious so they alert authorities to find out what....on and on and on. Yes they can as you say improve things but other than specific npcs like Luke, Leia, Han, Chewy, etc you can not really say that ALL rebels or ALL nightsisters or ALL any group would not report even if you had a good repo score with them because there is always that one person out to make a buck, suck up to authority, etc. And again they have made changes and the ones you suggest with scores rolled can lead to either same or less.

Contextual reasons for reporting can exist. Why not make that happen? - This has been answered by a few folks here and other places and I just answered it again. For instance NS were brought up. First lumping them all togther is no go because of many reasons. Besides what has been mentioned add to it that you are bringing too much attention to them and need you gone. Report.
 
Tyr said:
Yes I am hearing and we are talking past each other. I just said we can argue both sides forever with making up stuff. You counter with "are rare" and then the ad nauseam argument goes on with me saying well that would be even more suspicious and curious so they alert authorities to find out what....on and on and on. Yes they can as you say improve things but other than specific npcs like Luke, Leia, Han, Chewy, etc you can not really say that ALL rebels or ALL nightsisters or ALL any group would not report even if you had a good repo score with them because there is always that one person out to make a buck, suck up to authority, etc. And again they have made changes and the ones you suggest with scores rolled can lead to either same or less.
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So then why the opposition? Do you disagree with anything in particular or are you just opposing it for the sake of being contrarian?

"you can not really say that..." I didn't. Please read my post if you want to discuss it with me.

"And again they have made changes and the ones you suggest with scores rolled can lead to either same or less." Or more or be tweaked or no changes might be seen whatsoever. This is all hypothetical and I'd really like to better understand why you are opposed to making things make sense? Can you please explain?
 
LoppYasaburo said:
So then why the opposition? Do you disagree with anything in particular or are you just opposing it for the sake of being contrarian?

"you can not really say that..." I didn't. Please read my post if you want to discuss it with me.

"And again they have made changes and the ones you suggest with scores rolled can lead to either same or less." Or more or be tweaked or no changes might be seen whatsoever. This is all hypothetical and I'd really like to better understand why you are opposed to making things make sense? Can you please explain?
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Making things make sense to who? The point is you can argue forever that they don't make sense considering this is a game of with space wizards and such. I am responded to your suggestions with the score because it either makes the vis same or less. Less outside of instances=bad.

Want to change it fine but make sure you change it so it is same or higher and I have no issue with that as it fits the timeline and enemy of the state piece.

Oh and I want to see what the Knight and FRS is like before jumping off the change cliff.

Edit - I can be rebel and hate the Empire and still hate the Jedi for what they have done (according to the propaganda)
 
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Tyr said:
Making things make sense to who? The point is you can argue forever that they don't make sense considering this is a game of with space wizards and such. I am responded to your suggestions with the score because it either makes the vis same or less. Less outside of instances=bad.

Want to change it fine but make sure you change it so it is same or higher and I have no issue with that as it fits the timeline and enemy of the state piece.
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"Making things make sense to who?"
Contextually. As explained. Please read my post.

"I am responded to your suggestions with the score because it either makes the vis same or less."
As I asked before, if it's the same, why the concern? Do you think that systems cannot be tweaked and tuned? Please read what you are responding to.


"Want to change it fine but make sure you change it so it is same or higher and I have no issue with that..."
Literally what I'm advocating for, please read my post.
 
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