Refinement for the Visibility Calculations

LoppYasaburo said:

"Making things make sense to who?"
Contextually. As explained. Please read my post.

"I am responded to your suggestions with the score because it either makes the vis same or less."
As I asked before, if it's the same, why the concern? Do you think that systems cannot be tweaked and tuned? Please read what you are responding to.


"Want to change it fine but make sure you change it so it is same or higher and I have no issue with that..."
Literally what I'm advocating for, please read my post.

Click to expand...

Ok have fun. You are not. The score system you suggests says that some that would now may not if the scores are different. May not is less. Makes sense to you maybe. I also responded with no concern if the same. So at this point you are just arguing to argue so I wasted to much time here. Same or Greater is fine. Your score suggestion does not do that.

Edit - Change your example if you do not mean less --> So, maybe the likeliness to report goes down. Maybe now it's a 30% chance because this townsperson knows that this jedi is a helper to townspeople.

I can be rebel and hate the Empire and still hate the Jedi for what they have done (according to the propaganda)

Tyr said:

Ok have fun. You are not. The score system you suggests says that some that would now may not if the scores are different. May not is less. Makes sense to you maybe. I also responded with no concern if the same. So at this point you are just arguing to argue so I wasted to much time here. Same or Greater is fine. Your score suggestion does not do that.

Click to expand...

Do you not understand that things can be adjusted to increase as well as decrease? Like, you can make the volume on a speaker lower, true, but you can also make the volume louder. So, with a scoring system of likeliness, the values can potentially end up with less occurrences, yes, but then, through the magic of tuning and testing, they can be altered to be the same or even more. Do you need me to explain it more simply?

Are we about to suggest a factional alignment system? Cause that would be truely interesting.

Eielson said:

Are we about to suggest a factional alignment system? Cause that would be truely interesting.

Click to expand...

I think there's potential to use that system to augment others like NPC reporting for sure! And I mean that's something that could bleed into a whole other nonsense like maybe NPCs have a sympathizer scale that can lean in different directions and then depending on player action and faction standing maybe there's variations in like quest rewards or maybe something like jedi reporting but, say, for rebel/imperial where like a non-factional citizen might report someone to the empire cause they hate the rebellion and love the empire (slider) and then maybe with enough reports an NPC might randomly be sent to fight the player. Similar to jedi bounty stuff but not nearly as hard, more just for flavor than anything and doing something with that rep system. I mean it's not the subject of this PV but I think expanding factional rep use could open doors to more things like that

As a jedi I do agree that the Jedi gameplay should come with its own risks and rewards, as its part the charm and preserving immersion within the galaxy, but I also agree that the visibility could use little bit of fine tuning.

For the example, I too feel it being little silly about the mindless zombies and wild life like the banthas being able to raise your visibility if they SEE your lightsaber or force powers in action.
Would make more sense if they would give it in case of fighting against the jedi, thus leaving saber marks, force lightning burns, etc. behind. Thus how it could be explained in the RP.

The reputation system could potentially also play well with the visibility.
I dont mean giving jedi immunity against being reported if they got max positive rep with the townfolk faction for the example, but instead it could lower the chances or grant benefit of reducing it like the NPCs in the safehouse, while those with the negative rep like bandit faction, would increase it higher like players?
This would also benefit the Rebel and Empire aligned jedi with the NPC cities controlled by their faction,
I remember there was PV here once about the reputation with the NPCs and what pros/cons they could grant to the player.

Solitary said:

I initially started my original post with a complement to the Restoration developers because they've made some Serious, Useful, and extensive additions to SWG. Previously, I had just dismissed getting vis from everything I flew by as a limitation of the system. The more recent additions convinced me that perhaps that wasn't the case and perhaps it was time to speak up. I generally believe that a person's perspective matters when trying to understand their suggestion or point of view which is why I try to offer some information about my perspective and my reasoning. I don't typically speak up much because there always seems to be someone that is offended at their core that you've dared to suggest a change and the insults and dismissals start flying which is when I just tune out.

Click to expand...

There is always people who may get upset and rude about whatever suggestion others may raise up, no matter if its big or small, and its your right to call them out, if they go personal.

But everyone must remember that the Player Voice is meant to serve as stage where we may all reflect and ponder our ideas or wishes as community together.
Dont let anyone put you down from raising up voice for what you feel important to suggest. Otherwise this game and community itself would shrink and turn stuffy. We all share this galaxy after all.

Anything involving the jedi just get some people extra sensitive, even if the discussion itself would be about merely being able to dye robes instead of being white.
Thus speak up your mind, as we all should, or otherwise nothing change nor improve within the game.
Just keep it civil and respectice, how we all wish being spoken to each other everyone.

Solitary said:

Your statement at the end of your post is one reason I object to PvP, telling me to "deal with it" dismisses me, my opinions, and my experience as irrelevant. Many of the PvPers that I've run into over the years have been just plain Vile. I choose to play in a way that avoids having to interact with the vileness. I've been playing SWG since the last Beta in 2003, I can adjust, if PvP becomes unavoidable as a Jedi, my character will go back to being a doctor/creature handler that day. Just as an aside, I stood at the northern outpost on Yavin and watched people beat on a character that had four full rows of buffs + 1, they beat on him for 15 minutes and couldn't kill him, I took a screenshot and left.

Click to expand...

My statement is not intended to offend you or dismiss you experiences but matter of fact is that sometimes there are systems in place to move you out of your comfort zone and they are intentional - there is simply not much more to add except telling you that you will have to deal with them - nothing more and nothing less.

As for all the other discussion that came after this regarding immersion and realism:
Im sorry but this is after all a video game - certain mechanics might not be how you see it in the movies and there is a reason for that.
Certain mechanics and gameplay aspects serve a goal and try to keep certain limitations on subjects, that the movies don't have to deal with because they are simply start to finish written scripted stories.

You actually dont want to pursuit movie level immersion because if we really want to go there and argue about why we don't want to do that, let me throw you some things we could also argue about then in the name of realism and immersion which you probably dont want in the game:
- Permadeath
- Force sensitivity determined on character creation
- You don't get to pick your race - You don't choose your birthrights when it down to immersion.
- You cant change your race - Obvious
- You no longer can carry 27 million units of steel in your inventory

i can expand this list indefinitely - Obvious these points seem over the top to kill the argument, but as a matter of fact, its just to demonstrate that in certain cases more immersion does not necessarily result in a better experience - so the whole point of arguing with immersion is kinda not really a strong one.

The game plays in a galactic conflict between the rebellion and the empire - they are at war - if you sign up for these factions you do decide you want to become part of it and participate in it. Its a commitment. This includes pvp - otherwise you can stay neutral or merc up to have a more selective control over when to participate.

Jedi are enemy of the state - they are a hunted class and this includes pvp. They are a class the game by design intentionally tries to force into keeping a low profile.
Also regarding jedi - It is an alpha class that comes with its downsides - Visibility is one of them and you are supposed to act very careful with it - in this version of the game it is already significantly easier to deal with visibility than in the original game - there is also several ways to actively reduce your visibility after getting some built up. There is simply no reason to make it even easier.



Edit:
One thing on the instances tho:
While i do not think getting visibility in there is a problem - its endgame content after all - i do think getting killed in loading screen when you get out of them is problematic.

Jylin said:

My statement is not intended to offend you or dismiss you experiences but matter of fact is that sometimes there are systems in place to move you out of your comfort zone and they are intentional - there is simply not much more to add except telling you that you will have to deal with them - nothing more and nothing less.

As for all the other discussion that came after this regarding immersion and realism:
Im sorry but this is after all a video game - certain mechanics might not be how you see it in the movies and there is a reason for that.
Certain mechanics and gameplay aspects serve a goal and try to keep certain limitations on subjects, that the movies don't have to deal with because they are simply start to finish written scripted stories.

You actually dont want to pursuit movie level immersion because if we really want to go there and argue about why we don't want to do that, let me throw you some things we could also argue about then in the name of realism and immersion which you probably dont want in the game:
- Permadeath
- Force sensitivity determined on character creation
- You don't get to pick your race - You don't choose your birthrights when it down to immersion.
- You cant change your race - Obvious
- You no longer can carry 27 million units of steel in your inventory

i can expand this list indefinitely - Obvious these points seem over the top to kill the argument, but as a matter of fact, its just to demonstrate that in certain cases more immersion does not necessarily result in a better experience - so the whole point of arguing with immersion is kinda not really a strong one.

The game plays in a galactic conflict between the rebellion and the empire - they are at war - if you sign up for these factions you do decide you want to become part of it and participate in it. Its a commitment. This includes pvp - otherwise you can stay neutral or merc up to have a more selective control over when to participate.

Jedi are enemy of the state - they are a hunted class and this includes pvp. They are a class the game by design intentionally tries to force into keeping a low profile.
As for Jedi - It is also an alpha class that comes with its downsides - Visibility is one of them and its you are supposed to act very careful with it - in this version of the game it is already significantly easier to deal with visibility than in the original game - there is also several ways to actively reduce your visibility. There is simply no reason to make it even easier.

Click to expand...

"There is simply no reason to make it even easier."
Who is asking for easier? This keeps coming up but it's not something anyone is asking for so I wonder where you read this?

"Jedi are enemy of the state"
Yep. So is the entire Rebel Alliance, what's your point? Should rebels have a strange visibility system also? I mean you're not wrong about this and once again, no one is arguing that visibility is removed. It just could be better. Couldn't it?

But then I read the rest of your post and I'm inclined to think you don't believe anything could be better and that it's so good that no improvements are ever made.

So let's talk about realism and immersion in the context of games!

Games are a simulacrum of reality, but they are not reality. There can be a number of reasons why games do not 1:1 mimic real life. Expediency, convenience, difficulties in implementation, all these contribute into decision making for how "realistic" something is.

For example, it might be realistic to program in a fully functional digestive system on top of the food and drink system which simulates actual nourishment, weight, health, and even necessary downtime and whatnot for the inevitable end of the digestive tract. However, it is not really important to do all that for a game so instead we get cut corners in fill and buffs and a timer.

This is a decent system in that we can feel some sort of connection to the characters eating and drinking, and while it might not be perfectly real, it's likely not that distracting to the majority of players that we don't know what's going on with regards to the finer points of digestion. And that's okay, because we have enough there that our minds can go "this makes sense, more or less."

However, when a system doesn't make much sense, it can set off more alarms.

Like right now, the setting is during the height of the conflict between the Empire and the Rebellion. However, after traveling a lot of different planets, it feels almost as though the Empire barely exists as there are just so many rebel commandos everywhere. Is it a war, then? Where is the Empire? It is a little bit distracting to call it a Galactic Civil War when it feels like 99% of the galactic population is a soldier for the Rebel Alliance. And yes, this is a game mechanic that is caused by players performing actions in various conflicts.

Both the food system and the war system are unrealistic, yet both are understandable in the context of the game. So what makes visibility different?

We are told that visibility is an expression of reports going up the chain to the Empire and that they then take action with various means, bounty hunters, inquisitors, Darth Vader. Okay, no problem, makes sense that the Empire would want to do something about that. The problem arises, then, in that the EMPIRE would want to do something about that, not everyone.

The Empire is clearly not all knowing or all powerful, neither in the lore or in the games. Much more so in the games, in which, as mentioned, the Rebel Alliance is clearly the dominate side in the war. So, then, it becomes a bit of a mental alarm when the empire gets a report from a rebel. Or a dark jedi. Or a magical witch. Or a reanimated corpse that wants nothing but to eat the brains of the living.

There is a disconnect. And what is being asked for here is not that Jedi are given grace so they can have an easier time. It is not begging for extreme realism that feels just like real life at the expense of ruining the experience of playing a game. It is simply an ask that the system is looked at and that methods are implemented to reduce the disconnect in how visibility works so that it doesn't cause the player to go "Huh? Why and how is an ewok telling the empire I have a lightsaber?"

Does this make sense? Do you understand the difference between realism and immersion? Do you get no one is asking for an easier time?

You wrote all that wall of text to just fall back to one sentence "Huh? Why and how is an ewok telling the empire I have a lightsaber?"
I will explain why , because its a game system designed to keep Jedi in check , that is it , nothing more nothing less and it does not have to make sense because again it is not trying to replicate the movies 1:1 so really ANY npc should give you visibility exceptions should be made for Rebel and Imperial hero npcs, themepark and animal npcs.
Another misconception everybody seems to make is that visibility = report which that is not the case , when an npc flashes -VISIBILITY- that is not a report to the empire or whoever , it is just a system acknowledging your presence in the world , the only proper reports made to authorities are when a player uses the report command.
You claim that you do not want it easier for Jedi but by creating these strawman arguments that is in fact what you want the outcome to be.

LoppYasaburo said:

"There is simply no reason to make it even easier."
Who is asking for easier? This keeps coming up but it's not something anyone is asking for so I wonder where you read this?

"Jedi are enemy of the state"
Yep. So is the entire Rebel Alliance, what's your point? Should rebels have a strange visibility system also? I mean you're not wrong about this and once again, no one is arguing that visibility is removed. It just could be better. Couldn't it?

But then I read the rest of your post and I'm inclined to think you don't believe anything could be better and that it's so good that no improvements are ever made.

So let's talk about realism and immersion in the context of games!

Games are a simulacrum of reality, but they are not reality. There can be a number of reasons why games do not 1:1 mimic real life. Expediency, convenience, difficulties in implementation, all these contribute into decision making for how "realistic" something is.

For example, it might be realistic to program in a fully functional digestive system on top of the food and drink system which simulates actual nourishment, weight, health, and even necessary downtime and whatnot for the inevitable end of the digestive tract. However, it is not really important to do all that for a game so instead we get cut corners in fill and buffs and a timer.

This is a decent system in that we can feel some sort of connection to the characters eating and drinking, and while it might not be perfectly real, it's likely not that distracting to the majority of players that we don't know what's going on with regards to the finer points of digestion. And that's okay, because we have enough there that our minds can go "this makes sense, more or less."

However, when a system doesn't make much sense, it can set off more alarms.

Like right now, the setting is during the height of the conflict between the Empire and the Rebellion. However, after traveling a lot of different planets, it feels almost as though the Empire barely exists as there are just so many rebel commandos everywhere. Is it a war, then? Where is the Empire? It is a little bit distracting to call it a Galactic Civil War when it feels like 99% of the galactic population is a soldier for the Rebel Alliance. And yes, this is a game mechanic that is caused by players performing actions in various conflicts.

Both the food system and the war system are unrealistic, yet both are understandable in the context of the game. So what makes visibility different?

We are told that visibility is an expression of reports going up the chain to the Empire and that they then take action with various means, bounty hunters, inquisitors, Darth Vader. Okay, no problem, makes sense that the Empire would want to do something about that. The problem arises, then, in that the EMPIRE would want to do something about that, not everyone.

The Empire is clearly not all knowing or all powerful, neither in the lore or in the games. Much more so in the games, in which, as mentioned, the Rebel Alliance is clearly the dominate side in the war. So, then, it becomes a bit of a mental alarm when the empire gets a report from a rebel. Or a dark jedi. Or a magical witch. Or a reanimated corpse that wants nothing but to eat the brains of the living.

There is a disconnect. And what is being asked for here is not that Jedi are given grace so they can have an easier time. It is not begging for extreme realism that feels just like real life at the expense of ruining the experience of playing a game. It is simply an ask that the system is looked at and that methods are implemented to reduce the disconnect in how visibility works so that it doesn't cause the player to go "Huh? Why and how is an ewok telling the empire I have a lightsaber?"

Does this make sense? Do you understand the difference between realism and immersion? Do you get no one is asking for an easier time?

Click to expand...

Well i do get that some systems could be better and im not denying that, as for some you already mentioned that i would even agree on.

However instead of just arguing over theoretical principles - why don't you try to analyze how the suggested changes would affect the current state of the game.
You will notice that if you simply apply those it will just mean overall less obtained visibility for jedi and therefore make it easier for them.

Now you can obviously argue that its not immersive and realistic and for xyz to report you but end of the day if you change it without a decent counterbalance, it will result in less overall visibility given to jedi and therefore be easier - im not arguing about what people ask for - im arguing about the consequences and outcome of it.

Also let me add here the whole jedi state is unrelated to a faction - if you are imperial or rebel does not matter in that regards you are still a jedi - you are not automatically "a good guy for the imperials" if you are a imperial jedi. This is a demonstration on how it works lorewise on this server :

And therefore by your own example refering to the digestive system - i would as example say - imperials reporting imperial jedis "does make sense"
You can read the full scope of it here: Jedi - Part 4 - It's the Emperor's Galaxy and the Jedi are Just Living In It


You can try to talk around this pretending its not the case but in the reality the outcome is - less visibility by certain entities = less visibility overall = easier.

And yes i do actually think the current visibility is a okay compromise for most people.
As for myself as mentioned i find it relatively easy already but im not here gonna suggest to make it harder because the way it currently works it mostly fulfils its purpose and can be managed by most people that play with it in mind.

The problem arises, then, in that the EMPIRE would want to do something about that, not everyone.

According to the lore in this game's time and age, Jedi are almost nonexistent and are hunted, hated, and shunned by the vast majority of the population. The life of those who choose the way of the Force should be perilous, and they must be extremely careful to avoid being noticed as Jedi.

From this lore perspective, the Jedi's first goal should be to remain hidden and minimize any rumors about their presence. Currently, there are many tools available in the game to lower your visibility, and most of them require patience, which is quite fittingly one of the core pillars of both the Jedi and Sith ways.

If there is a great opportunity for the Jedi to gain something, such as loot from a Heroic, then it should come with risks and consequences. The risk is being hunted by Bounty Hunters, as killing a well-known character in this galaxy (like Exar Kun) generates significant rumors. The consequence is either to fight or to get killed. This choice is for the Jedi to make, but that choice was already made when considering the risk and rewards before entering the instance.


I agree with the immersion part to a point. The problem is you keep looking at this as Imperial vs Rebel and thinking no rebels would every report a "jedi" though the Jedi order is extinct right now. Also It's not contacting the Empire directly. They tell their family/friends, they tell theirs, someone lets slip to an Imperial spy, it makes its way up the chain of Command, and a report is made that "xyz heard of Jedi activity at....

Immersion is great if it goes along with the game desing and intent. They have made some changes like Han and Chewy don't report any more like they used to. I am not sure if they fixed Luke or not (but if not for immersion they should). The original post is basically asking for whole groups to be excluded which is 100% wrong. An individual might not say anything but this is not about direct reports and that is hwere you also keep falling back too.

jcan0918 said:

You wrote all that wall of text to just fall back to one sentence "Huh? Why and how is an ewok telling the empire I have a lightsaber?"
I will explain why , because its a game system designed to keep Jedi in check , that is it , nothing more nothing less and it does not have to make sense because again it is not trying to replicate the movies 1:1 so really ANY npc should give you visibility exceptions should be made for Rebel hero npcs and animal npcs.
Another misconception everybody seems to make is that visibility = report which that is not the case , when an npc flashes -VISIBILITY- that is not a report to the empire or whoever , it is just a system acknowledging your presence in the world , the only proper reports made to authorities are when a player uses the report command.
You claim that you do not want it easier for Jedi but by creating these strawman arguments that is in fact what you want the outcome to be.

Click to expand...

And if you have to make mental hoops for it to work, when the alternative is you don't have to, it seems as though there is room to improve. That's the point of the wall of text you didn't really understand but responded to anyway.

"really ANY npc should give you visibility"
why? "to keep Jedi in check" is an interesting idea, but can we not achieve the same results with better practice? It doesn't answer the crucial "why," though, and I really just think maybe you have trouble comprehending immersion, and that's okay. But then I find it strange you're arguing against immersion because you are imagining a scenario and refuse to acknowledge any other scenario could exist.

"acknowledging your presence in the world"
Okay, cool, but again, can be better implemented, no? I mean I keep circling back to this and you seem to want to stick on a point you've invented.

The system could be better. Not easier, better. Do you agree? Do you disagree? That's the wall of text, simplified, just for you.

Also what strawman argument?

LoppYasaburo said:

And if you have to make mental hoops for it to work, when the alternative is you don't have to, it seems as though there is room to improve. That's the point of the wall of text you didn't really understand but responded to anyway.

"really ANY npc should give you visibility"
why? "to keep Jedi in check" is an interesting idea, but can we not achieve the same results with better practice? It doesn't answer the crucial "why," though, and I really just think maybe you have trouble comprehending immersion, and that's okay. But then I find it strange you're arguing against immersion because you are imagining a scenario and refuse to acknowledge any other scenario could exist.

"acknowledging your presence in the world"
Okay, cool, but again, can be better implemented, no? I mean I keep circling back to this and you seem to want to stick on a point you've invented.

The system could be better. Not easier, better. Do you agree? Do you disagree? That's the wall of text, simplified, just for you.

Also what strawman argument?

Click to expand...

Instead of arguing pointlessly about the fact a system could be implemented better - why not suggest something that works better without actually changing how the jedi experience is like difficulty wise?

As a matter of fact, why he calls it strawman is because the changes you are defending - as an outcome will have that it will be easier for jedi - thats what people are arguing about - not about if it could be done better - you try to sell it as an improvement that is not intended to make it easier, but be more immersive - the outcome still remains the same.
so its actually exactly what he calls it

Jylin said:

Well i do get that some systems could be better and im not denying that, as for some you already mentioned that i would even agree on.

However instead of just arguing over theoretical principles - why don't you try to analyze how the suggested changes would affect the current state of the game.
You will notice that if you simply apply those it will just mean overall less obtained visibility for jedi and therefore make it easier for them.

Now you can obviously argue that its not immersive and realistic and for xyz to report you but end of the day if you change it without a decent counterbalance, it will result in less overall visibility given to jedi and therefore be easier - im not arguing about what people ask for - im arguing about the consequences and outcome of it.

Also let me add here the whole jedi state is unrelated to a faction - if you are imperial or rebel does not matter in that regards you are still a jedi - you are not automatically "a good guy for the imperials" if you are a imperial jedi. This is a demonstration on how it works lorewise on this server :
View attachment 10011
And therefore by your own example refering to the digestive system - i would as example say - imperials reporting imperial jedis "does make sense"
You can read the full scope of it here: Jedi - Part 4 - It's the Emperor's Galaxy and the Jedi are Just Living In It


You can try to talk around this pretending its not the case but in the reality the outcome is - less visibility by certain entities = less visibility overall = easier.

And yes i do actually think the current visibility is a okay compromise for most people.
As for myself as mentioned i find it relatively easy already but im not here gonna suggest to make it harder because the way it currently works it mostly fulfils its purpose and can be managed by most people that play with it in mind.

Click to expand...

"You will notice that if you simply apply those it will just mean overall less obtained visibility for jedi and therefore make it easier for them."

Yes, if literally nothing else is done. But as I mentioned in a previous post in this thread, and something that has been brought up a lot here as well, I also believe whatever new system in place should be adjusted to provide roughly the same outcome as the current system. For example, visibility on sight is, what, 5 points? That can be increased, I'd imagine. If you take all the reported data you get an average level and that general outcome can be applied to a smaller pool that is then scaled in terms of weight to achieve similar results. I made the incorrect assumption that you had read the rest of this post and that's on me, I should have mentioned that in addition to changing how the system works that... the system can also be changed in this way as well.

"Also let me add here the whole jedi state is unrelated to a faction"
Correct. I don't really see the relevance, but yeah they're a separate thing. It brings up a minute idea that a rebel could not like a jedi, but this is granular and also addressed in an earlier post. I'm not going to regurgitate it all, but factional alignment is also something I think should be included in a system change.


"less visibility by certain entities = less visibility overall = easier"

This is not the only equation, though.

Less Vis + Increased Vis Points = The same visibility = the same ease as present

Less Vis + Heavily Increased Vis Points = Much More Visibility = Much Harder


"okay compromise for most people"

Definitely not the end of the world. But the whole point of Player Voice is to bring up areas that could be better, no? Bring ideas to the table, hash them out, figure out where we can do better? Just because most people put up with something doesn't mean they wouldn't appreciate refreshed systems, right? I would have to think so, people are still in this game despite it making changes in other areas.

Jylin said:

Instead of arguing pointlessly about the fact a system could be implemented better - why not suggest something that works better without actually changing how the jedi experience is like difficulty wise?

As a matter of fact, why he calls it strawman is because the changes you are defending - as an outcome will have that it will be easier for jedi - thats what people are arguing about - not about if it could be done better - you try to sell it as an improvement that is not intended to make it easier, but be more immersive - the outcome still remains the same.
so its actually exactly what he calls it

Click to expand...

I have! Previously in this thread! As well as in my recent reply to you! Please feel free to read it all!

And that's not a strawman but okay?

LoppYasaburo said:

"less visibility by certain entities = less visibility overall = easier"

This is not the only equation, though.

Less Vis + Increased Vis Points = The same visibility = the same ease as present

Less Vis + Heavily Increased Vis Points = Much More Visibility = Much Harder

Click to expand...

Thats a nice try but realistically when you do as suggested in your scenario exclude certain things from giving vis points and in return increase it on others, what players will do is simply farm whatever does not give vis. - Thats why it is a global system, regardless of if it is a ewok or vader himself
Lets not pretend do be stupid, we know how well players are with bypassing systems if they have holes in them.

Tyr said:

The problem arises, then, in that the EMPIRE would want to do something about that, not everyone.

According to the lore in this game's time and age, Jedi are almost nonexistent and are hunted, hated, and shunned by the vast majority of the population. The life of those who choose the way of the Force should be perilous, and they must be extremely careful to avoid being noticed as Jedi.

From this lore perspective, the Jedi's first goal should be to remain hidden and minimize any rumors about their presence. Currently, there are many tools available in the game to lower your visibility, and most of them require patience, which is quite fittingly one of the core pillars of both the Jedi and Sith ways.

If there is a great opportunity for the Jedi to gain something, such as loot from a Heroic, then it should come with risks and consequences. The risk is being hunted by Bounty Hunters, as killing a well-known character in this galaxy (like Exar Kun) generates significant rumors. The consequence is either to fight or to get killed. This choice is for the Jedi to make, but that choice was already made when considering the risk and rewards before entering the instance.


I agree with the immersion part to a point. The problem is you keep looking at this as Imperial vs Rebel and thinking no rebels would every report a "jedi" though the Jedi order is extinct right now. Also It's not contacting the Empire directly. They tell their family/friends, they tell theirs, someone lets slip to an Imperial spy, it makes its way up the chain of Command, and a report is made that "xyz heard of Jedi activity at....

Immersion is great if it goes along with the game desing and intent. They have made some changes like Han and Chewy don't report any more like they used to. I am not sure if they fixed Luke or not (but if not for immersion they should). The original post is basically asking for whole groups to be excluded which is 100% wrong. An individual might not say anything but this is not about direct reports and that is hwere you also keep falling back too.

Click to expand...

"vast majority" is not everyone. Is a zombie a part of that vast majority? Is an Ewok? Do you think Wicket would rather shoot an arrow at Luke over a stormtrooper?

"hidden and minimize any rumors about their presence" Totally, but how's a zombie relaying information in a closed off quarantine zone?

"...thinking no rebels would every report a "jedi"" I don't think an enemy of the state would report another enemy of the state to the state, no. I think this needs work because it's weird.

"Han and Chewy don't report any more like they used to" Wow did it break the whole game and make it easier?

"whole groups to be excluded" No, it's questioning the reasoning behind "Spiderclan, and Singing Mountain Clan" and also the rebels reporting to the empire. And I am also not asking for full exclusion. But you know this because we've discussed it at length. I want it to make sense in a way that's not distracting and weighted differently so the ease isn't increased. Please at least pretend to acknowledge that, it's pretty rude that you don't but insist on arguing with me.

Jylin said:

Thats a nice try but realistically when you do as suggested in your scenario exclude certain things from giving vis points and in return increase it on others, what players will do is simply farm whatever does not give vis. - Thats why it is a global system, regardless of if it is a ewok or vader himself
Lets not pretend do be stupid, we know how well players are with bypassing systems if they have holes in them.

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You're acting as if no one can play to avoid visibility now. This is not the case. Let's make improvements so that it at least makes sense.