Refinement for the Visibility Calculations

LoppYasaburo said:

You're acting as if no one can play to avoid visibility now. This is not the case. Let's make improvements so that it at least makes sense.

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They avoid vsibility by keeping a low profile which is the intended way to play yes. - They do have risk of ending up on bh terminals if they are not careful.

The problem with your "changes that make sense" is here:

LoppYasaburo said:

"vast majority" is not everyone. Is a zombie a part of that vast majority? Is an Ewok? Do you think Wicket would rather shoot an arrow at Luke over a stormtrooper?

No, it's questioning the reasoning behind "Spiderclan, and Singing Mountain Clan" and also the rebels reporting to the empire.

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If those would not give visibility or give lower visibility i would simply level up my jedi by killing zombies and farm holocrons all day from spiderclan at 0 or significantly lower risk.

This kinda always applies when you exclude certain mob types or make them more favourable over others in that regards.

I understand where the original post is coming from. The assumption is gaining visibility is this NPC "reporting" you. I believe the intention is visibility is meant to be ambiguous. Rumours, legends can be attributed as visibility.

The only situation I see this not applying is in the quarantine zone zombies. But this was a change because it was being used to rapidly gain XP for Jedi (20-30 minutes to full template), without gaining any visibility.

I am not sure I agree with the statements that a bounty is inevitable or that Jedi is a requirement for heroics. Harder difficulties will always be easier with Jedi, but with bringing more comes higher visibility and that's part of the trade-off.

There are builds to tank NM heroics that aren't Jedi (Lancer/berserk/mbrawler).

For these reasons I don't think they should be changed. I understand that you feel otherwise but if you are uncertain about how to avoid getting a bounty there are a handful of helpful people who can help you mitigate this in the discord.

You are able to run all Mustafar or regular heroic instances in a row, without obtaining a bounty. The exception is Hoth for sure though lol.

Jylin said:

They avoid vsibility by keeping a low profile which is the intended way to play yes. - They do have risk of ending up on bh terminals if they are not careful.

The problem with your "changes that make sense" is here:



If those would not give visibility or give lower visibility i would simply level up my jedi by killing zombies and farm holocrons all day from spiderclan at 0 or significantly lower risk.

This kinda always applies when you exclude certain mob types or make them more favourable over others in that regards.

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Never said they should all be excluded. And I mentioned the factional thing to you, right? Maybe you should go read those. It's in this thread. Take your time.

LoppYasaburo said:

Never said they should all be excluded. And I mentioned the factional thing to you, right? Maybe you should go read those. It's in this thread. Take your time.

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I did read the stuff about the suggested alignment system - but its simply not matter of what the opening thread suggests. Sure its related to it - but not exactly the suggested idea in this thread

LoppYasaburo said:

"vast majority" is not everyone. Is a zombie a part of that vast majority? Is an Ewok? Do you think Wicket would rather shoot an arrow at Luke over a stormtrooper?

"hidden and minimize any rumors about their presence" Totally, but how's a zombie relaying information in a closed off quarantine zone?

"...thinking no rebels would every report a "jedi"" I don't think an enemy of the state would report another enemy of the state to the state, no. I think this needs work because it's weird.

"Han and Chewy don't report any more like they used to" Wow did it break the whole game and make it easier?

"whole groups to be excluded" No, it's questioning the reasoning behind "Spiderclan, and Singing Mountain Clan" and also the rebels reporting to the empire. And I am also not asking for full exclusion. But you know this because we've discussed it at length. I want it to make sense in a way that's not distracting and weighted differently so the ease isn't increased. Please at least pretend to acknowledge that, it's pretty rude that you don't but insist on arguing with me.

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These are the strawman arguments i was talking about , you want to reflect a system that follows how the movies played out so it makes sense in your head.
Again they do not have to make sense because it is a system supposed to keep Jedi in check with minor exceptions for notable npcs.
The whole notion that the rebels would not report or somehow should not generate visibility is ludicrous, by using the logic you keep falling back to about movies , The Empire had spies and sleeper agents in lots of places , so even if you argue that rebels should not "report" jedi , secret agents in the rebellion would hear this chatter and make the appropriate report.
See how easy is it for me to make up stuff in the name of immersion and movie logic just to reinforce a point .......
Your whole point as someone pointed out perfectly sums it up in: make it easier on Jedi by "tweaking" visibility rules for the sake of "immersion or movie logic so it makes sense"

Jylin said:

I did read the stuff about the suggested alignment system - but its simply not matter of what the opening thread suggests. Sure its related to it - but not exactly the suggested idea in this thread

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If you don't want to discuss ideas then don't? I'm not going to pretend like I'm rigid to the thoughts expressed by someone else's post just because I agree with the spirit of it, don't act like I should.

~Summons Aconite to lock this thread~

jcan0918 said:

These are the strawman arguments i was talking about , you want to reflect a system that follows how the movies played out so it makes sense in your head.
Again they do not have to make sense because it is a system supposed to keep Jedi in check with minor exceptions for notable npcs.
The whole notion that the rebels would not report or somehow should not generate visibility is ludicrous, by using the logic you keep falling back to about movies , The Empire had spies and sleeper agents in lots of places , so even if you argue that rebels should not "report" jedi , secret agents in the rebellion would hear this chatter and make the appropriate report.
See how easy is it for me to make up stuff in the name of immersion and movie logic just to reinforce a point .......
Your whole point as someone pointed out perfectly sums it up in: make it easier on Jedi by "tweaking" visibility rules for the sake of "immersion or movie logic so it makes sense"

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These happened after you made an accusation and also they aren't strawmen, but okay.

"The Empire had spies and sleeper agents in lots of places"
And? Doesn't change anything brought up. The system can be improved EVEN SO. Let's make it feel more like there are spies and sleeper agents instead of a blanket system that relies entirely on whatever imagined scenario you have to invent like "every single zombie on Dathomir is an Imperial Spy."

"Your whole point as someone pointed out..." How about you read and respond to my point which refutes this?

No, it's questioning the reasoning behind "Spiderclan, and Singing Mountain Clan" and also the rebels reporting to the empire

At this point I think you are either being obtuse or trolling because you ignore things on purpose such as :

Another misconception everybody seems to make is that visibility = report which that is not the case , when an npc flashes -VISIBILITY- that is not a report to the empire or whoever , it is just a system acknowledging your presence in the world , the only proper reports made to authorities are when a player uses the report command.

Also It's not contacting the Empire directly. They tell their family/friends, they tell theirs, someone lets slip to an Imperial spy, it makes its way up the chain of Command, and a report is made that "xyz heard of Jedi activity at....

Lightsaber or lightning burns on the spiderling/zombie corpses someone finds?

Nidums said:

~Summons Aconite to lock this thread~

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If only.

LoppYasaburo said:

If you don't want to discuss ideas then don't? I'm not going to pretend like I'm rigid to the thoughts expressed by someone else's post just because I agree with the spirit of it, don't act like I should.

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I do want to discuss the idea suggested by the OP since this is what the thread is for - if you have different idea that works differently from the ground up - which it seemed like - work it out, write it down, post a suggestion and i will happily discuss it with you.

zerim2 said:

I understand where the original post is coming from. The assumption is gaining visibility is this NPC "reporting" you. I believe the intention is visibility is meant to be ambiguous. Rumours, legends can be attributed as visibility.

The only situation I see this not applying is in the quarantine zone zombies. But this was a change because it was being used to rapidly gain XP for Jedi (20-30 minutes to full template), without gaining any visibility.

I am not sure I agree with the statements that a bounty is inevitable or that Jedi is a requirement for heroics. Harder difficulties will always be easier with Jedi, but with bringing more comes higher visibility and that's part of the trade-off.

There are builds to tank NM heroics that aren't Jedi (Lancer/berserk/mbrawler).

For these reasons I don't think they should be changed. I understand that you feel otherwise but if you are uncertain about how to avoid getting a bounty there are a handful of helpful people who can help you mitigate this in the discord.

You are able to run all Mustafar or regular heroic instances in a row, without obtaining a bounty. The exception is Hoth for sure though lol.

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With respect, I can appreciate your stance on this, but I'd still encourage you to consider it from how it looks now to how it could look with changes to it. The Vis system as is is so vague to feel off and there are adjustments that could be made to it that keep the spirit of it while also making it less disconnected from what's going on.

Jylin said:

I do want to discuss the suggested idea suggested by the OP since this is what the thread is for - if you have different idea that works differently from the ground up - which it seemed like - work it out, write it down, pust a suggestion and i will happily discuss it with you.

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Do you not understand that discussions evolve? It's a back and forth, an exchange of ideas. I attempted to discuss them with you and we did have a back and forth for a moment but now it seems you just want to issue a statement opposing the original post after engaging. Does every single idea variant need a PV before you can allow yourself to even think about it?

LoppYasaburo said:

Do you not understand that discussions evolve? It's a back and forth, an exchange of ideas. I attempted to discuss them with you and we did have a back and forth for a moment but now it seems you just want to issue a statement opposing the original post after engaging. Does every single idea variant need a PV before you can allow yourself to even think about it?

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Players voice suggestions are a way for the community to suggest ideas to be voted on for implementation and discussion.
It becomes almost impossible to give an actual representation of community agreement with whatever the outcome of the discussion is, when it diverges too far from the initial thread.
Therefore whoever decides for something to be implemented or not, can not good a good impression of what part of this "evolvement" the majority actually agree on if something is going to be implemented to begin with.

So it is in fact just pointless to do that here.

And implementation of an entire npc alignment system is far from what the initial suggestion was.

"...and discussion."
So um...

"...diverges too far from the initial thread."
It hasn't, though. I am 100% discussing this in a way that matches the spirit of the suggestion. You are arguing against it and I am providing counterarguments. That's how discussions work.

"...majority actually agree on..."
Well so that's why discussion exists so we can take ideas and present them to people and then figure out what the majority agrees about. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the rules of PV state that "if an idea is upvoted enough it has to be implemented exactly as expressed in the initial post and the developers won't consider any other ideas or discussion about it ever because it has to be 100% the same as the original post." And even if that IS the case, it doesn't mean you and I can't discuss it better so that when I do make my own post it includes information that addresses your concerns. Like it's a discussion, it's arguments, no need to be hostile or do or die about it though.


Edit instead of making a new post:

Oki doke, it was nice discussing things with you briefly, wish you would have provided more thoughts so we could work towards better solutions but glad we instead we got to ponder what a discussion even is. Have a nice day too!

LoppYasaburo said:

"...diverges too far from the initial thread."
It hasn't, though. I am 100% discussing this in a way that matches the spirit of the suggestion. You are arguing against it and I am providing counterarguments. That's how discussions work.

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Well i have a different opinion on that, i think its going far off from the initial suggested idea. Which is fine, we don't have to agree on that.

LoppYasaburo said:

"...majority actually agree on..."
Well so that's why discussion exists so we can take ideas and present them to people and then figure out what the majority agrees about. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the rules of PV state that "if an idea is upvoted enough it has to be implemented exactly as expressed in the initial post and the developers won't consider any other ideas or discussion about it ever because it has to be 100% the same as the original post." And even if that IS the case, it doesn't mean you and I can't discuss it better so that when I do make my own post it includes information that addresses your concerns. Like it's a discussion, it's arguments, no need to be hostile or do or die about it though.

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I never said that there is a rule regarding that. i Just described the general concept and what difficulties it has.
At a certain degree this discussion - just like it is here and now with this post - is just so far off from the topic that it becomes hard for others to engage and therefore hijacks and sabotages the thread.

I am also ending this here, this is a pointless never ending discussion for the sake of discussing something without a point out of boredom without constructive content for the sake of pointlessly discussing something without an end.
I made my opinion on the original post clear. That was what i was aiming for.
Have a nice day

reply to downvote...

The argument of "Jedi can respin insanely fast to full template in Quarantine Zone" is null and void. Jedi already blatantly spin at ToX. I was getting 10600 exp ticks from mobs while being in a full group, Again -> FULL BLATANTLY not caring about vis at all. That breaks immersion more if that's the focus but I'm used to people cherry picking their arguments around here.

And I am so sorry, but the "you are leaving saber marks" argument is dumb as ####, I get full vis value for Force Healing while I'm speeding away with Force Run in the zombie zone. Making the kill itself generate vis can be something else but its not intuitive either just like brainrotten zombies "reporting you", plus it makes no fun gameplay either. No detective is chasing after a 0 vis Jedi looking for saber marks and footprints in a zombie apocalypse zone or in the wilderness of Dantooine, they are not on the terminals yet.

I'm not upvoting though, because sadly PvP should not be able to be avoided as a Jedi. BHs need to eat, but the situation is incredibly dumb nonetheless. The devs are trying to apply a bandaid fix with horrendous game mechanics that make no sense not just by simple logic but neither lore. I kinda get your own faction giving you vis, like "Rebel Joe is cheering that you arrived to save the day, he can't wait to tell his wife all about you so he does that, then his wife gossips to her best friend who's husband happens to be an imperial officer, ohh...".
But zombies make no sense, Jantas make no sense, rogue droids make no sense at HK, Exar Kun cultists make no sense, Nightsisters, Singing Mountain Clan members make no sense, that's where I'd draw the line, Dath is swimming in faction npcs anyway.

Something should be done, but removing vis off these humanoids is not enough in itself. Might open a thread about my ideas to elaborate, but it has PvP, unfriendliness and stuff pure PvE players might not find a dream come true.

Will repost these 2 just to hear myself type and because it is what you are doing:

Another misconception everybody seems to make is that visibility = report which that is not the case , when an npc flashes -VISIBILITY- that is not a report to the empire or whoever , it is just a system acknowledging your presence in the world , the only proper reports made to authorities are when a player uses the report command.

Also It's not contacting the Empire directly. They tell their family/friends, they tell theirs, someone lets slip to an Imperial spy, it makes its way up the chain of Command, and a report is made that "xyz heard of Jedi activity at....

It is not a detective either it is people finding it and things like that. The EK is funny because a Dev used Jedi killing EK as an example of why they should get it because of the rumor of killing such a high profile would spread. The NS would not want you around drawing attention, and so on.

Jedi already blatantly spin at ToX. I was getting 10600 exp ticks from mobs while being in a full group, Again -> FULL BLATANTLY not caring about vis at all. That breaks immersion more

I agree with you 100% on that one.