Rework avoid incap

Rework avoid incap
This idea/suggestion is Open. You can respond to ask questions or discuss the idea and either vote it up or down if you believe it should or should not be implemented, respectively. Popular suggestions and ideas will be considered by the development team to become reality in-game.
This prefix is applied by a Galactic Senator when they are officially sponsoring a post for consideration by the Development Team.
Proposal
Rework "Avoid incap" to be a long cooldown and short duration ability. 15 second duration. 2 Min cooldown. Reduce movement speed reduction to a 25% penalty as a trade off.
Justification
Avoid incap is far too strong in PVE Heroics. Currently it requires no skill and is sustainable for an unhealthy amount of time (Force Feed/Channel/Nimans).
Motivation
The suggested change would elimate the skill trivialising top tier heroics while repurposing it for a meaningful, healthy spot in the current game environment.
Good Day, Ladies and Gentlmen.

Today we are here to discuss the invincible elephant in the room. Avoid incap needs to be reworked.

For too long "AI" has been used to trivialise our hardest PVE content. Tanks rely on a single button press every 25-30 seconds, are then fed force or channel their way out of all damage/skill checks. It's time to make tanking great again.

I propose the ability be reworked to a short duration - high cooldown ability. I think a 15 second duration (half its current duration) and a 2 min cooldown on this ability is reasonable with a buff to the movement speed penalty moving it to 25% or so (open to this number being different). As the ability sits at the master box of Defender, I recognise it needs to be strong, have impact and feel rewarding. However, for too long this has become the solution to all problems in high end content.

I believe my suggestion would change the ability from being an overpowered one-size-fits-all button press to a tool that can be utilised when it is required. Effectively repurposing it to either give healers a break mid-fight or for use as a panic button if things head south fast, putting it in a much healthier spot for game balance.

This will obviously impact PVP/BH too as said changes will significantly reduce the consistency a MDefender can utilitise AI to stay alive. However, as most of the time it merely delays the inevitable, i think the impact should be minimal to outcomes changing. However, i do think that the movement speed penalty should be reduced to balance out the loss the ability would suffer in PVP/BH to help bring it to a healthier place.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk, feel free to flame me in the comments below.
 
Hows does the normie or jedi tank survive getting pummeled with 6 to 10k hits in NM mode?
side note NM lot table is terrible anyways, hard mode best bang for your buck anyways.
 
Hows does the normie or jedi tank survive getting pummeled with 6 to 10k hits in NM mode?
side note NM lot table is terrible anyways, hard mode best bang for your buck anyways.
Stop trying to fight Vader in Echo Base if you're being hit by 6 to 10k damage in a single attack?

Don't know what other advice to give.
 
Could just significantly up the force drain on damage taken so it's avoid incap and not carefree
That would make it... a worse Force Armor :x And potentially just lead to a death spiral situation. Needs to be a tool that will relieve stress, not add to it by depleting your limited pool of force.
 
That would make it... a worse Force Armor :x And potentially just lead to a death spiral situation. Needs to be a tool that will relieve stress, not add to it by depleting your limited pool of force.
I mean it currently cost force to maintain, but the cost is super low and allowed it to be spammed without thought or tactic. It is after all called "avoid incap" and not "live forever"
 
That would make it... a worse Force Armor :x And potentially just lead to a death spiral situation. Needs to be a tool that will relieve stress, not add to it by depleting your limited pool of force.
Let's also not forget, that avoid incap is not the same as FA. FA is one ability from enhancer which is indeed armor (not even at master) so anyone can grab it. Defender gets a lot innate defense, force aura, force valor, and avoid incap.
 
I mean it currently cost force to maintain, but the cost is super low and allowed it to be spammed without thought or tactic. It is after all called "avoid incap" and not "live forever"
I know Rozay, see commentary on previous pages, lol. I was attempting to express a desire to turn it into a tool which would momentarily relieve stress from a spiraling situation and allow a team / individual Jedi to stabilize and continue the fight.

Increasing the force cost on a skill without changing really anything else about it would not accomplish that task. It would, for example, drastically drain your force if used during a raid that was already going wrong and lead to two dead people, rather than allowing your team to revive the dead person and re-organize themselves.

If you had another view of how that played out, you are of course welcome to correct me.

Wrong. It's gonna make PvE loot more scarce which will double and triple the price that the PvP folk have to pay us in order to get their jewelry. I'm all for this change on a purely selfish level.
This doesn't add to the discussion about changing AI. Nobody will pay the further gouged prices you're asking for regardless.
 
Please stop with this false take of content will be harder if we change an ability. Currently the ability is nothing but degenerate and offers nothing positive. We want it to feel impactful when its used and something is happening, not just watching the character flip flop on the floor.

Like I'm sorry to say this but if you genuinely think NM content is only possible because of AI then someone really needs to like review what is going on these runs. I don't think Force armour is to strong just because it's enough to tank nightmare heroics, you have to manage your force with Channel Force and Niman, there is an actual gameplay element to it. You don't even need to be healed with AI up.
 
This doesn't add to the discussion about changing AI. Nobody will pay the further gouged prices you're asking for regardless.
This doesnt add to the discussion about changing AI. Prices aren't set by broke people. They're set by people with money who can afford what they need.
 
I know Rozay, see commentary on previous pages, lol. I was attempting to express a desire to turn it into a tool which would momentarily relieve stress from a spiraling situation and allow a team / individual Jedi to stabilize and continue the fight.

Increasing the force cost on a skill without changing really anything else about it would not accomplish that task. It would, for example, drastically drain your force if used during a raid that was already going wrong and lead to two dead people, rather than allowing your team to revive the dead person and re-organize themselves.

If you had another view of how that played out, you are of course welcome to correct me.


This doesn't add to the discussion about changing AI. Nobody will pay the further gouged prices you're asking for regardless.
I mean it doesn't have to drain 10% force per second or anything. Just more than it currently does so you can't mindless sit in AI and niman during a whole heroic and never receive a heal, pop a consumable, etc.
Could up force cost, eliminate regen while AI is up (passive or from niman), or make it so its not 100% uptime. Maybe the regen is a good route as your other jedi could feed you force so someone would have to do something for you since they currently don't have to heal you at all. Could even make it similar to bmed with the 25% of normal regen although this probably wouldn't help with niman.
 
Please stop with this false take of content will be harder if we change an ability. Currently the ability is nothing but degenerate and offers nothing positive. We want it to feel impactful when its used and something is happening, not just watching the character flip flop on the floor.

Like I'm sorry to say this but if you genuinely think NM content is only possible because of AI then someone really needs to like review what is going on these runs. I don't think Force armour is to strong just because it's enough to tank nightmare heroics, you have to manage your force with Channel Force and Niman, there is an actual gameplay element to it. You don't even need to be healed with AI up.
What the hell does that even mean "feel impactful"
-I mean i could argue it is already impactful when i have grown men with tears in their eyes "Sir AI is too strong , please nerf it , scrub players are getting loot they should not be getting "
-Something is indeed happening in this PV , lot of feelings have been hurt and lot of tears shed over who gets to complete nightmare heroics and their method to accomplish it
-And we are already watching characters flip flop over what AI should be
:sneaky:
 
I mean it doesn't have to drain 10% force per second or anything. Just more than it currently does so you can't mindless sit in AI and niman during a whole heroic and never receive a heal, pop a consumable, etc.
Could up force cost, eliminate regen while AI is up (passive or from niman), or make it so its not 100% uptime. Maybe the regen is a good route as your other jedi could feed you force so someone would have to do something for you since they currently don't have to heal you at all. Could even make it similar to bmed with the 25% of normal regen although this probably wouldn't help with niman.
This is pretty on par with what i proposed
- 1 min duration with a 5min CD so it can't be spammed during a boss fight
- reduce healing received by 75% while AI is active
- eliminate force regen while AI is active
:unsure:
 
What the hell does that even mean "feel impactful"
-I mean i could argue it is already impactful when i have grown men with tears in their eyes "Sir AI is too strong , please nerf it , scrub players are getting loot they should not be getting "
-Something is indeed happening in this PV , lot of feelings have been hurt and lot of tears shed over who gets to complete nightmare heroics and their method to accomplish it
-And we are already watching characters flip flop over what AI should be
:sneaky:
Have you ever contributed anything positive to a player voice or are you judt here to be negative. If you honestly think AI is okay as is, then how does it make sense that a jedi in AI can run a whole instance with 0 heals from healers which are required. And 0 force fed or resources required from the rest of the group in group content? This also affects the taboo PvP greatly, so it's not just a NM topic.
 
This is pretty on par with what i proposed
- 1 min duration with a 5min CD so it can't be spammed during a boss fight
- reduce healing received by 75% while AI is active
- eliminate force regen while AI is active
:unsure:
There's something positive. I'm not sure that the healing would matter much aside from when AI is about to fall off. But definitely sounds like a better use of it rather than up 24/7. It just need something to make it require some sort of thought or tactic behind it.
 
Have you ever contributed anything positive to a player voice or are you judt here to be negative. If you honestly think AI is okay as is, then how does it make sense that a jedi in AI can run a whole instance with 0 heals from healers which are required. And 0 force fed or resources required from the rest of the group in group content? This also affects the taboo PvP greatly, so it's not just a NM topic.
im pretty sure im not more negative than all the cry babies that got alot of the heroic sets nerfed , leaving players scrambling for the next FOTM build/set . while also complaining they are too broke to keep buying new heroic sets every other month , but you do you :sneaky:
 
How would changing it to make it not avoid incap with its current mechanic and slow walking speed.. To a new power entirely called Moment of Glory Massive health Regen, no root will stop you, Armor and Defense increased and intimidate aura in melee range no initial force cost. Power lasting for 30-60 sec but at the end of the timer you have a force Sap because of all the exertion (TBD). Force Regen is totally stopped till recovery and it blocks channeling (TBD) but you can still recover force via Niemen form or other jedi. The power at the End of 30-60 sec timer also has a damage Debuff to anyone or NPC's within melee range. (soften the NM mode heroic's damage so healers can keep up) Would just need to test how long the reuse timer would be on the power. This would also give BH's a window after the power is used because the Defender can not get force back as he is recovering from the force sap and if they stay out of melee they don't get the debuff to damage. Just some thoughts.
 
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I want to ask an honest question without triggering anyone here.
I'm seeing 2 things here in regards to Nightmare tanking
"Force armor is what's needed from Enhancer along with 2xxx defender for the taunt"
"AI is needed to tank at master defender" (and peoples opinion on whether it's cheese or not is being debated)

Does anyone have an account of a Master Defender able to tank nightmare without AI? It seems crazy to me personally that an entire tree about defense and mitigation gets outclassed by a single line in enhancer for mitigating damage. Maybe that exposes a problem with either Defender as a whole and not *just* AI, or with how some of the nightmare contents damage ranges may be tuned?

I think there's other angles to look at to make this a productive discussion.
 
I want to ask an honest question without triggering anyone here.
I'm seeing 2 things here in regards to Nightmare tanking
"Force armor is what's needed from Enhancer along with 2xxx defender for the taunt"
"AI is needed to tank at master defender" (and peoples opinion on whether it's cheese or not is being debated)

Does anyone have an account of a Master Defender able to tank nightmare without AI? It seems crazy to me personally that an entire tree about defense and mitigation gets outclassed by a single line in enhancer for mitigating damage. Maybe that exposes a problem with either Defender as a whole and not *just* AI, or with how some of the nightmare contents damage ranges may be tuned?

I think there's other angles to look at to make this a productive discussion.
This point has been raised and nobody wants to address it because it would mean
-The whole defender tree would need to be re worked to be able to handle the damage from nightmare modes
-Force armor would need a nerf , because as you pointed out , it is wild that a single line from Enhancer can match the whole Defender tree
instead they pivot to "But what about AI cheesing bosses"