Revamp space token payouts

I gave it an upvote.

In 25 years I've never had a single positive or enjoyable experience in PvP, not since the days of World War II Online. I can hear all the insults being heaped right now, being vile just reminds me how vile PvP is. What's my point? I guess I don't have one except double tokens isn't a decent incentive to get through to the last Gunship in a duty mission and have someone surprise you and deprive you of the end reward.

This is not one of those statements about if you don't like it my way leave, rather it's an honest heads up. For those that love PvP, I suggest you try Eve Online some time.

Solitary said:

I gave it an upvote.

In 25 years I've never had a single positive or enjoyable experience in PvP, not since the days of World War II Online. I can hear all the insults being heaped right now, being vile just reminds me how vile PvP is. What's my point? I guess I don't have one except double tokens isn't a decent incentive to get through to the last Gunship in a duty mission and have someone surprise you and deprive you of the end reward.

This is not one of those statements about if you don't like it my way leave, rather it's an honest heads up. For those that love PvP, I suggest you try Eve Online some time.

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Before I respond, I want you to know that I support the PV. - However I also support a system, to promote both pve, and pvp. I think this PV is aiming at exactly that, we dont want to turn away PvPers from resto space, but we want a system, that can accurately incentivizes people to go overt. Right now, in my opinion, and others, the gap between non-overt and overt is too great, and removes the burdon of choice making the choice an illusion, that pvpers hide behind, so they can seal club, or attack people that truly have no interest in pvping. If not overt, you get HALF your payout. So it makes it feel like its not worth it to pve, while not overt. By reducing that gap, and increasing token pay out for non-overt, and offering a secondary token, the choice becomes more clear. If you want to pvp- and invite pvp, nothing changes, and you will have a bonus to alternate farming methods, and if you just want to pve farm, you are severely hindered by not going overt. This changes things a bit with this PV. Only people that actually want to pvp, will overt now. Only people that actually want space battle tokens will overt. There will be no more reason to overt to get a pve bonus. The overlap will be gone. Will truly separate the pvp and pve game play unless you choose to, without gimping yourself one way or the other.

I am split on this. I will try and explain:

1. Removal of the double duty token payout for doing overt duty missions
Response: Agreed
2. 50% increase to payouts of all duty missions. This should be at every stage of the duty mission so that the final payout is 150% of what a standard payout is now.
Response: Agreed
3. Completing a duty mission while flagged SF will now add a supplemental ammount of Station tokens on top of the Duty tokens.
Response: Disagree. No Station Tokens when getting Duty Tokens. Two different rewards for doing 2 different tasks. I also believe the reward should be equal to the "risk".

it has been a while since I have done Space Battles and even longer since I have done Space PvP for various reasons. It's something I been meaning to get back into. With that said there is both PvE and PvP Space Battles now. The Token reward should be double for those that do it PvP as opposed to PvE. (not sure what the pay out is as I have not done them since PvE space battles were implemented) Again, Risk -v- Reward.

Motivation
Players feel like they are forced to flag SF to get the best payout as it is now. This has built animosity between those players that want pvp vs the players that just want to farm pve tokens.
Response: This is what is wrong. Seems to always be an element that wants the same "reward" without putting in the same amount of "risk" or work. Any game that embarks down this path is doomed to eventually fail. NGE did this and look what happened.

Down vote.

+1, PVP should never be forced onto players. Glancing through people seeing people saying being flagged for PVP should get more rewards. Why? Because you want to fight other players instead of AI? You made that option as people make that option to not PVP

Remnant said:

+1, PVP should never be forced onto players. Glancing through people seeing people saying being flagged for PVP should get more rewards. Why? Because you want to fight other players instead of AI? You made that option as people make that option to not PVP

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Why should people that refuse to put forth the risk or work get the same reward as someone that does. I don't think anyone that does put forth the risk / work is saying non PvPers shouldn't get anything .... just less.

SagoMactow said:

I am split on this. I will try and explain:

1. Removal of the double duty token payout for doing overt duty missions
Response: Agreed
2. 50% increase to payouts of all duty missions. This should be at every stage of the duty mission so that the final payout is 150% of what a standard payout is now.
Response: Agreed
3. Completing a duty mission while flagged SF will now add a supplemental ammount of Station tokens on top of the Duty tokens.
Response: Disagree. No Station Tokens when getting Duty Tokens. Two different rewards for doing 2 different tasks. I also believe the reward should be equal to the "risk".

it has been a while since I have done Space Battles and even longer since I have done Space PvP for various reasons. It's something I been meaning to get back into. With that said there is both PvE and PvP Space Battles now. The Token reward should be double for those that do it PvP as opposed to PvE. (not sure what the pay out is as I have not done them since PvE space battles were implemented) Again, Risk -v- Reward.

Motivation
Players feel like they are forced to flag SF to get the best payout as it is now. This has built animosity between those players that want pvp vs the players that just want to farm pve tokens.
Response: This is what is wrong. Seems to always be an element that wants the same "reward" without putting in the same amount of "risk" or work. Any game that embarks down this path is doomed to eventually fail. NGE did this and look what happened.

Down vote.

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The disconnect is the the Dev said to keep the void vender open, which means the reward for going overt is still vastly still there. Space battles tokens being able to be used to target farm loot, over shot gun farming with Kash Nunes... HUGE bonus.. Would most likley pull more people to go overt. - This was said in space senate channel. So Im just not sure what your point is? - To echo, legends lets people farm, and pvp is done in DS. Theres no risk to farming. They have the largest space community. So its not "failing" people here just dont agree with the amount of tokens that get thrown around, huge adjustments to loot, blah blah. This PV is not to make it like legends, Im just giving you an example of where you are wrong, in this exact segment. The point we are having is this is actually successful. You can look at lots of MMOs that have a successful division from pvp/pve .. wow for example. Theres not alot of open world pvp, unless I tag and go looking for it. Most wow pvp is done via arenas, and battle grounds. In most games pvp, doesnt lead to better gear. It leads to "gear" but it leads to the same gear, or pvp is just an option you can do - it doesnt usually get grouped with pve farming... again, I dont understand your point here. To at my core I dont believe someone inviting pvp should just get better stuff. Faster stuff, or more stuff. I just hard disagree with a take like this. PVE is what makes the economy go, easier access to parts for new players, more inviting community, wealth or lack of, you still have to farm.

ksully09 said:

The disconnect is the the Dev said to keep the void vender open, which means the reward for going overt is still vastly still there. Space battles tokens being able to be used to target farm loot, over shot gun farming with Kash Nunes... HUGE bonus.. Would most likley pull more people to go overt. - This was said in space senate channel. So Im just not sure what your point is? - To echo, legends lets people farm, and pvp is done in DS. Theres no risk to farming. They have the largest space community. So its not "failing" people here just dont agree with the amount of tokens that get thrown around, huge adjustments to loot, blah blah. This PV is not to make it like legends, Im just giving you an example of where you are wrong, in this exact segment. The point we are having is this is actually successful. You can look at lots of MMOs that have a successful division from pvp/pve .. wow for example. Theres not alot of open world pvp, unless I tag and go looking for it. Most wow pvp is done via arenas, and battle grounds. In most games pvp, doesnt lead to better gear. It leads to "gear" but it leads to the same gear, or pvp is just an option you can do - it doesnt usually get grouped with pve farming... again, I dont understand your point here. To at my core I dont believe someone inviting pvp should just get better stuff. Faster stuff, or more stuff. I just hard disagree with a take like this. PVE is what makes the economy go, easier access to parts for new players, more inviting community, wealth or lack of, you still have to farm.

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I really do not care what Legends does. If I wanted to play NGE .. I would be there, not here. You say this is not to make it like Legends ... but essentially ... you are, by your own admission.
So to you, people that disagree with you are wrong. But you disagreeing with the down voters... does not make you right either. You bring up WoW ... again .... been there done that .... this is not WoW.

You believe: "To at my core I dont believe someone inviting pvp should just get better stuff." I strongly don't think that people not willing to put forth the effort or the risk should get equal to those that do. Period. Full stop. Less yes. Less means it just takes you a little longer you get what people going overt get ..... people with your position don't want to wait and want the same rewards. That in of itself is not right.

This has been the core of SWG since JTL. I agreed with half of what was proposed ... actually 2/3 of it ..... so ... I am not going to give on the last point. People need to put in the work / risk if they want the bigger rewards.

In comparison, Heroics and instances have better rewards. Is that next?? Just asking .....

You missed the point, you said systems like this fail, I was saying that they dont... with examples. You said NGE failed.. this isnt NGE either. So Im confused. Why youd dismiss my point, and not see how I can dismiss yours.

Its also stated in the PV, and from the dev that there would be a way to spend the battles tokens on more items, like the void vender, so there IS an award, quite a big one. This is where Im confused by your take. The reward is a different and far better way to target gear. Which will cause myself and others to overt more.

I also never said you were wrong in your opinion, I said I disagreed. Im not attacking you, we are discussing, and Id like to change your opinion. Thats all man. You disagreeing with ALL the upvotes as well doesnt make you right or wrong either. So again, point here?

Also comparison? Do heroics and instances provide benefits to being overt, and doing pvp? I honestly dont know. (I dont think so though? If they dont, then I dont understand the point?) But why would that matter? It has nothing to do with this PV or this side of the game. This doesnt effect crafting. Can we have pvp crafting wars so we can craft better things? I can ask the same thing, when and where does it stop?

My point is your reason for the down vote is you think there is a removal of the benefit to being overt. Which isnt true. If that is your reason, I strongly suggest you reach out to the space senator , for more details. Because there will still be a large if not LARGER risk / reward with this.

SagoMactow said:

I really do not care what Legends does. If I wanted to play NGE .. I would be there, not here. You say this is not to make it like Legends ... but essentially ... you are, by your own admission.
So to you, people that disagree with you are wrong. But you disagreeing with the down voters... does not make you right either. You bring up WoW ... again .... been there done that .... this is not WoW.

You believe: "To at my core I dont believe someone inviting pvp should just get better stuff." I strongly don't think that people not willing to put forth the effort or the risk should get equal to those that do. Period. Full stop. Less yes. Less means it just takes you a little longer you get what people going overt get ..... people with your position don't want to wait and want the same rewards. That in of itself is not right.

This has been the core of SWG since JTL. I agreed with half of what was proposed ... actually 2/3 of it ..... so ... I am not going to give on the last point. People need to put in the work / risk if they want the bigger rewards.

In comparison, Heroics and instances have better rewards. Is that next?? Just asking .....

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I don't disagree and 25% even 50% at a push I'd bounce between SF and not. Depending on mood 100% increase was ridiculous.

I wasn't here when introduced I suspect it was that high on the expectation that due to SF people wouldn't be always getting through them and it probably was the case at the time. Obviously a shift has happened that until recently people where gettinf through them 90% of the time so it became the norm and filtered down to new players.

I'd have been fine with just a nuke from double tbh to 50% still worth SF if in the mood but if not hey just pve it.

Forcing people to go Overt to run duty missions just gives the PvPers more targets to gank near the end of their duty mission. People talk about folks not putting in the effort if they don't go Overt, problem is that if you go Overt, you put in the effort then get ganked right at the end so you get less. I think the last time I saw a fair fight in PvP in playing World War II Online in 2000 or so, granted I don't go around watching PvP fights. The PvPers all know each other, they target anyone they don't know. I for one play SWG to relax, getting plastered by someone that has set up their ship to do exactly that isn't relaxing. I allowed myself to be talked into going Overt not to long ago during a space battle. After the battle, I limped my ship to the station to get it fixed, started talking to the station, BOOM! There was no one from the opposite side participating in the battle or even in system I was assured by the PvPers, this guy came in after the battle just to pick off folks with damaged ships like me. I never saw him, I never had a chance. I told the others I was helping what happened and who got me and their response was, "Oh him.". He blew me up, then left the system. Like I said they all know each other. Yes I was dumb enough to go overt thinking the experienced PvPers would help me out, it won't happen again.

Greetings, all.

I'm a fan of this change.

Getting ganked by people when doing missions is a motivation killer. It's been this way for a while, and I have to wonder how many people aren't doing space content because of it. I just returned from a long 3 year break, and it was the same then. The added tokens are great, when the predators aren't out, but next to worthless when they are. Like Solitary said above, they like to get you when you are knee-deep into a heavy wave of ships and have all of the agro (and you lose the good payout). It got to the point that I would save predator names on my friends list just so that I knew they were online and could avoid them. It was that, or play during less population heavy times. Both options aren't very appealing.

I'd love to have a more relaxed farm, like it's been mentioned earlier. PvP is cool when you want it. When you want it. Right now, it feels more like the current system gives the vultures a banquet.

Solitary said:

Forcing people to go Overt to run duty missions just gives the PvPers more targets to gank near the end of their duty mission. People talk about folks not putting in the effort if they don't go Overt, problem is that if you go Overt, you put in the effort then get ganked right at the end so you get less. I think the last time I saw a fair fight in PvP in playing World War II Online in 2000 or so, granted I don't go around watching PvP fights. The PvPers all know each other, they target anyone they don't know. I for one play SWG to relax, getting plastered by someone that has set up their ship to do exactly that isn't relaxing. I allowed myself to be talked into going Overt not to long ago during a space battle. After the battle, I limped my ship to the station to get it fixed, started talking to the station, BOOM! There was no one from the opposite side participating in the battle or even in system I was assured by the PvPers, this guy came in after the battle just to pick off folks with damaged ships like me. I never saw him, I never had a chance. I told the others I was helping what happened and who got me and their response was, "Oh him.". He blew me up, then left the system. Like I said they all know each other. Yes I was dumb enough to go overt thinking the experienced PvPers would help me out, it won't happen again.

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So then you should be supporting the PV? It increases duty token payout when you aren’t overt.

ksully09 said:

So then you should be supporting the PV? It increases duty token payout when you aren’t overt.

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I did support it.

Maxal said:

Generally speaking, player voice discussions are about the PVs. There is a pvp discord that you can complain about pvp in.

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That would just get insults piled on. I generally don't discuss PvP at all but when others offer opinions for all to see, I put mine out there as a counterpoint.

I found this PV by accident. I stopped looking when Aconite shut mine down within five minutes of me posting it (don't know the actual time but it wasn't much more than that).

Maxal said:

I don't understand you objection. You say you want risk to equal reward, but object to the reward for flagging up.

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Hey Maxal,

So let me try and explain this in a different way.

I was in agreement with the first 2 bullet points, To me, Duty Missions and Duty Mission Tokens are for people leveling space and visit Cash Nunes to try to get some parts to RE. No one should be forced to do this SF, and they currently are not forced. Nor do I believe there should be a need to reward extra tokens if someone goes SF to complete Duty missions. So essentially that right there should be removed from the game. IMHO.

With that said, I have spent tens of thousands of tokens with Cash Nunes and not get the part that I needed. So maybe a decrease in the number of tokens being spent, or an increase of tokens received when completing Duty missions. Or an increase in the chances of getting a good part to RE?? I personally do not care which. Just something needs to be done in this space.

The part I have a problem with is the Station tokens being rewarded for Duty missions. Station tokens are rewarded for completing or participating in totally different content. That content as we all know is space battles.

We have PvE and PvP Space Battles. My belief, and it will not change, is that people that do the Space Battles while SF should get a larger payout of tokens. Space Battles were always overt. A change was apparently made because people complained that they didn't want space PvP to do Space Battles. Ok .. fine, they got what they wanted. But now they want the same reward level as those that are SF and who are exposed to more risk.

Let's be 100% completely honest here .... It is infinitely harder and more risky doing Space Battles SF. This cannot be denied. With that said, people that do Space Battles while SF "should" get a larger reward.

What I would like to see, if possible, since ground can have players combatant and SF playing right next to each other, Can this be done in Space Battles?? It seems it is pretty much there anyways. Everyone is combatant when entering space. Then those that wish PvP turn on Special Forces.

I hope this clarifies what I am talking about.