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Grunanca

Proposal
I propose a series of instanced space scenarios for endgame PvE in space.

The idea
Imagine you are a smuggler. In the DWB, you find a terminal and slice it. The terminal gives you a hyperspace point to program into your astromech.

You gather a group of pilots and head to space and activate the program. It sends your entire fleet into hyperspace and you land in an unknown system. When you land, you can see a moving asteroid field and in a more clear direction a Black Sun Lancer Frigates. Your objective comes up on the screen "Find the contraband smuggler before the cargo has been transferred".

Knowing the Lancer Frigate is full of fighters, you make your way through the asteroid field. Your friend in an x-wing fail to avoid an asteroid and is severely damaged. You can barely see each other as the asteroid field has severely reduced your targeting distance. However y0our other friend in an Y-wing warns you that his scanner (new ship component for bombes), has picked up a tier 10 black sun patrol 2,5km further into the asteroid field. You wait for a while, dodging asteroids, while the patrol clears. Later you come out on the other side of the asteroid field and there it is, a tier 10 YT-1300 with a few escorts. You scramble to disable it and succeed, but fail to kill the Vaksai that is heading straight for the Lancer Frigate.

You as you are about to dock with the YT, a warning comes up "Your presence has been discovered, patrols have been sent out". You probably should have stopped that Vaksai. You notice the Lancer Frigate is now heading straight for you at high speed and second later the first wave of fighters hit, with many more following right behind, coming from the Lancer Frigate.

As you finish docking with the YT, you are told to meet up with another transport on the other side of the asteroid field. An escape ensues , where several players are lost to asteroid hits, missiles or lasers from the waves of ships pursuing you. Luckily you had two players in an ARC-170, and that rear facing gun really helped the escape. In the end, the team meets up with a friendly transport, completing the mission and hypering everyone out again, with a swarm of enemy ships approaching.

The Short Version
Make different heroic like scenarios in space, that requires different ships in different roles. Make scenarios that interacts with the environment, detection and situations where escaping is the goal, because staying will overwhelm you in the end. The example above was Black Sun, but this can be applied for every faction. Be it reb/imps, Hutts or any other. It could be capital vs capital fights. Help a ship escape, destroy a station with an ISD approaching and so much more. The goal is to have fun group activities that cannot be done alone and rewards the gameplay with tokens/loot. It is also a possibility to make these on different difficulties, like heroics.
Justification
Right now there is little group play in space that rewards all participants. There is Patriots of Dathmoir, where everyone can sit in a gun and shoot and there are convoys. Convoys are easiest with 2 players, so making the group larger, just makes it take longer in most cases. This means on the PvE side of the game, you at some point reach a place where you can basically solo/duo anything in the game. Compared to ground where there is plenty of 8 player group content.
Motivation
I would like to see some high end PvE content for space, that requires more than just blasting away ships with higher and higher amounts of hitpoints/damage. I also want this content to be group focused, so it can bring more players into the space game. I think the way heroics have done it with different mechanics is a great way to make people hooked on such content.
See above
 
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This would give incredible value for the general space game, and tying it in with ground activities as described with the smuggler above could tie things in both through ground group content such heroics, or class specific content as described with the slicing for example. +1
 
Maybe I'm not very creative. What can be done with our space game mechanics that would be different from what have now?

What you posted reads like fan fiction but I don't see any substance to how that turns into new gameplay.
 
Maxal said:
Maybe I'm not very creative. What can be done with our space game mechanics that would be different from what have now?

What you posted reads like fan fiction but I don't see any substance to how that turns into new gameplay.
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I’m with maxal on this. Have a decent DM narrate a space convoy for you and some friends and you got what you described.

I’m very much behind anything that can feel like a “dungeon” experience in space, but I’m not sure this is it.

The only thing I think would feel like a heroic in space is if the group was actually split in between ground and space. Think of the ground crew turning off the shields on Endor before the space crew could start to damage the Death Star type deal. If there was a way to communicate triggers from ground to space which would “advance” a story in between a ground group and a space group, that would feel like a co-op dungeon experience, imo.
 
Maxal said:
Maybe I'm not very creative. What can be done with our space game mechanics that would be different from what have now?

What you posted reads like fan fiction but I don't see any substance to how that turns into new gameplay.
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* Stealth - Make nebulae, asteroids etc reduce targeting range. Make enemy ships have trigger based on it. If you are seen, something of overwhelming force is sent after you, making the mission much harder to complete.

* Give ships roles. For example y-wing and tie bomber have modules that can extend targeting range to support the above mechanic. Have ships that need a carghold module to transport the objective. Make different sizes, to encourage heavy transport ships.

* Environment. Collision damage with asteroids, shield taking damage in nebulae.

* More intelligent ai, where one ship can alert a base to cause spawns that in the end will be too hard to withstand. Patrols that have a patrol route. Hunting down the ship holding the objective. And many more.

* Capital ships actually fighting each other and moving with an objective in mind, not just shooting at the middle of each other like the spacebattles we know. The very first star wars movie is a great scenario, an ISD hunting a corvette. Help the corvette escape or the the other way around.

* Generally scenarios that are not just shoot till it dies like we know, but instead requires placement and a plan. On ground element damage can have an influence, in space it can be for example missiles being needed to kill the shield generator of a capital ship.

The possibilities are really endless, but a lot of inspiration can be drawn from ground heroics. I also recommend watching videos from the old x-wing vs tie fighter game. Most missions there are built like this. Rebels often need to get in and do something before the larger imperial fleet arrives. Attack a station to make its officers flee. Capture the officers before they reach a hyper point.
 
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Sounds like a cool game. It just doesn't sound like anything in jtl. You are talking about a major overhaul of game mechanics.
 
As said elsewhere not a fan of anything that changes the core mechanics. So collision, stealth, new components etc etc ja all hogwash to me.

Ground heroics work because the enemies have unique mechanics. You aren't changing the core combat you are utilizing enemy mechanics to make it engaging.

Not against the idea of them could be fun and there is quite a bit of stuff that can be utilises in source such as boss ship mechanics etc juat not keen on the 1 set of mechanics for here 2 set of mechanics for there 1 set for the next thing etc etc
 
Veizyr said:
I’m with maxal on this. Have a decent DM narrate a space convoy for you and some friends and you got what you described.

I’m very much behind anything that can feel like a “dungeon” experience in space, but I’m not sure this is it.

The only thing I think would feel like a heroic in space is if the group was actually split in between ground and space. Think of the ground crew turning off the shields on Endor before the space crew could start to damage the Death Star type deal. If there was a way to communicate triggers from ground to space which would “advance” a story in between a ground group and a space group, that would feel like a co-op dungeon experience, imo.
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This is actually theoretically possible thanks to E3 2005.

SOE did a demo of a space battle that ended up with some of the group boarding whilst some continued fighting outside, those on board completed an objective then rejoined their group in space.

The key part of it all was the boarding was treat as still in the space zone unlike others where it's an insance outside the true zones.

So updates are happening real time.
 
This all sounds great, not all of these mechanics are unrealistic by any stretch of the imagination either. @Grunanca Weren't you saying that some server, (Legends perhaps?) has already made asteroid damage function on a test server for example?

I think we can all agree, no matter what form it takes, we could do with some more group based space content. I think the large group convoys are a lot of fun, even if they take a bit longer you get a load more loot as everyone gets a crate so it's worth it in the end. it also means you can throw in the odd interceptor as a speed tank which wouldn't be as efficient with small groups of 2 or 3 so even as things stand there is a bit of space for multi rolling.

Resto has already made some massive leaps in space so I don't see that what Grunanca is suggesting is massively beyond the realms of possibility. But even with all the systems and assets we have in place, there could be some relatively easy stuff like reusing the Star Destroyer asset but reinventing it so it hypers into systems like a space battle. Beyond that if you actually made the thing challenging rather than the pushover it is in Deep Space. All you'd need to do is triple its weapon damage and make its components a a bit tankier and you'd have a challenging fight that required a group. It would be great if they could find a way to have capital ships link their agro to a squadron of fighters too. They managed to do something not dissimilar in Lando's questline with the Nebulon B from Space Battles being re-purposed for the last boss of the questline.

While I want both, I personally prefer world encounters in general, it always feels more emergent to me. I like the way that Flashpoints seem to be timed to end just as frigates in space battles are vulnerable for example. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be much of a crossover between space and ground PvP but that could change with a bit of a revamp to space. I'd like to see space get the equivalent of the ground invasions that are timed throughout the day and act almost as bigger versions of flashpoints. That's where the star destroyer, or a group of Nebulon Bs could come in. Again, that could all be done with existing assests. You could have PvP/PvE versions of them. I remember Grunanca suggesting they could be brought in to attack the space stations that already exist as they aren't really used for much any more. I think that's a good shout. I really like the other ideas in the thread that suggest linking space and ground, especially the idea of boarding parties, but I'd imagine, if anything, that would be even more complex than what Grunanca is suggesting.

TLDR: Long story short, Grunanca is right, we need more group based space content!
 
AnthisCorac said:
Shorter than short version: If an ancient game like X-Wing vs Tie Fighter can implement certain advanced mechanics, why can't JTL?
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Why spend the time and effort to completely overhaul how the game works?
There are no roles for pve in jtl. There are no squad leaders for buffs, no healers, no tanks. Everyone is a DPS and the highest DPS draws agro every time. Stop acting like we could script out different encounters that would become any different than a group convoy where everything aggros one ship while everyone else trails the mob to pick them off.
Anything different would require new npc AI, and new mechanics for role ships. That would mean even more changes to ship chassis and or specialized components. The people who can't see that have to be just plain ignorant of how anything works in jtl. This is never going to happen and it's pointless to keep arguing about it.
 
Maxal said:
Why spend the time and effort to completely overhaul how the game works?
There are no roles for pve in jtl. There are no squad leaders for buffs, no healers, no tanks. Everyone is a DPS and the highest DPS draws agro every time. Stop acting like we could script out different encounters that would become any different than a group convoy where everything aggros one ship while everyone else trails the mob to pick them off.
Anything different would require new npc AI, and new mechanics for role ships. That would mean even more changes to ship chassis and or specialized components. The people who can't see that have to be just plain ignorant of how anything works in jtl. This is never going to happen and it's pointless to keep arguing about it.
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Well I guess the people coding the game are ignorant then... Because I did ask a dev and a certain person who plays a lot with the original code, before making this PV about the different things that needed to be done for this to happen.

1: AI doesn't need to be overhauled or a new one made. Its a matter of making a few simple if statements in the existing code. Like "if player has cargo tag, set as target" or "if player within x fly to wp y".

2: Adding a utility slot to specific ships is easy. Making a module that for example modifies the max detection range is a few lines of code. So absolutely no overhaul of ships is needed. Its as simple as these x, y and z ships can now equip this extra module.

3: The game already has unused code for bosses in space. So adding things like tractor beams, draining capacitor, disabling ships or components is all a few lines of code and not hard to make.

Making a scenario like described in this player voice is not hard at all and requires minimal changes.

The hard part is making a space instance as it doesn't exist in the code yet, but who knows, maybe some of the code from ground could be used. Instances are not really uncommon on ground.

Last there is building a new space system. Which varies from easy to hard depending on how much you want to put in it. However, considering that this would be a system without static spawns, stations etc, we are not really looking into a massively complicated system.
 
Grunanca said:
Well I guess the people coding the game are ignorant then... Because I did ask a dev and a certain person who plays a lot with the original code, before making this PV about the different things that needed to be done for this to happen.

1: AI doesn't need to be overhauled or a new one made. Its a matter of making a few simple if statements in the existing code. Like "if player has cargo tag, set as target" or "if player within x fly to wp y".

2: Adding a utility slot to specific ships is easy. Making a module that for example modifies the max detection range is a few lines of code. So absolutely no overhaul of ships is needed. Its as simple as these x, y and z ships can now equip this extra module.

3: The game already has unused code for bosses in space. So adding things like tractor beams, draining capacitor, disabling ships or components is all a few lines of code and not hard to make.

Making a scenario like described in this player voice is not hard at all and requires minimal changes.

The hard part is making a space instance as it doesn't exist in the code yet, but who knows, maybe some of the code from ground could be used. Instances are not really uncommon on ground.

Last there is building a new space system. Which varies from easy to hard depending on how much you want to put in it. However, considering that this would be a system without static spawns, stations etc, we are not really looking into a massively complicated system
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The dev team who has no interest in creating a space zone for a current planet, Mustafar, and no plans to include a space zone for future planet Nar Shadda, would be interested in building a space zone for this Heroic after all the other issues identified were coded up?

Again this is never going to happen. I hate PVs like this that get everybody excited but are just fantasy. It belongs with the guild spacestation/frigate/warlord Cruiser ect. ideas that pop up every couple months
 
But look at what the devs have done already with the Idiot's Array. It's not a pipe dream. It doesn't even have to be a heroic instance, as per my prior post, there are other ways they could expand on group content in space.
 
Maxal said:
The dev team who has no interest in creating a space zone for a current planet, Mustafar, and no plans to include a space zone for future planet Nar Shadda, would be interested in building a space zone for this Heroic after all the other issues identified were coded up?

Again this is never going to happen. I hate PVs like this that get everybody excited but are just fantasy. It belongs with the guild spacestation/frigate/warlord Cruiser ect. ideas that pop up every couple months
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It took me less than an hour to create a player owned ISD in space and that included piecing together the ISD from the 2005 e3 demo.

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Another hour to create a guild owned space station. With sections unlockable via purchase etc

Obviously still need polished but the guts where there.

I've been prototyping a space heroic just for lols and you would be surprised just how much there is already in place that can be utilized.

Boss abilities, shutting down player ships, vuln states, etc etc basically absolutely everything to build a heroic with.

I'll always say dream big. If all we ever ask for is "group duties" Please, a literal 1 line change or such like then it's all we will ever get.
 
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Whether or not something is able to be implemented is something the development team will decide. It should have no bearing on discussions of ideas. If an idea is approved we will find a way to implement it to our satisfaction, otherwise it does not matter.
 
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