Implemented Starship Fuel System

RoHRemis · May 17, 2022

Starships should require fuel that can be crafted by shipwrights and is used overtime while in space. It should be loaded in the starport so when you run low you have to land, load it up, and relaunch. It would nice if it had the same mechanic as ordinance and countermeasures, where you load it to your reactor or engine.

Grogar · May 19, 2022

RoHRemis said:
Yeah that's a problem: How to connect fuel use to activity. Sitting AFK and spamming weapons shouldn't use less fuel than just playing ATK(duty missions are a good example since you're very active with engines, weapons, and astromech commands)

If you just connect fuel to reactor generation rate it will disproportionately affect larger ships. People will just build smaller ships to AFK with.

I don't think a fuel system should be designed purely around how AFKers play. Ultimately you're not solving what the actual problem is and end up with a system that doesn't really add much to the game.

Blackflag said:
I like OP's the idea for introducing a credit sink and a means to keep AFK farming in space in check. However, I'm not a big fan at all of the idea of having to buy player crafted fuel to go enjoy any JTL content. It is possible that there may be times I can't go to space because fuel is all sold out or too costly. There would also be nothing stopping someone from buying out the market of fuel. Instead, I suggest it's just an NPC transaction with a set price per unit with cost to fill depending on ship mass. Max flight time without refueling being 2 hours or something and would be uniform for all ships. Calling a refueling ship could be a pilot command that would prompt an ATK check. Unless something changes in this proposal, I have to oppose.

I think implementing something purely as a game based credit sink feels like a bad move especially when one of the big driving factors of SWG is that it's largely a player led economy with crafting forming a core part of the game. There should be "some" interaction element with crafters, even if it's that there are different grades of fuel and the stuff you get off an NPC is cheap and nasty. One other option is that crafters don't sell fuel directly. Maybe there's some kind of community type goal where Shipwrights are able to contribute fuel towards a planet's starports and get rewarded based on contribution (with some kind of exponential drop off to ensure a bit of a level playing field) and pilots purchase from an NPC. The less fuel they have in the community pot, the more expensive it gets.

Narmy · May 19, 2022

RoHRemis said:
Starships should require fuel that can be crafted by shipwrights and is used overtime while in space. It should be loaded in the starport so when you run low you have to land, load it up, and relaunch. It would nice if it had the same mechanic as ordinance and countermeasures, where you load it to your reactor or engine.

i dont think you should be required to land to fuel up. this could be done at the landing station for the space zone thou or even with an added fueling station in the zone

ShattrdSoldier · May 28, 2022

I love space myself, but maybe the answer lies in a currency exchange? Maybe in space you have a different currency than credits that you have to exchange for credits at the banking terminals? Like every 5 space credits exchanges for 1 regular credit? Maybe that number can change based on the server population?

Cyclopeus · Jun 13, 2022

I love the space game. It is the reason I play. I do hope we don't fix it to death.

We should not be thinking about fuel consumption rates in terms of realistic space flight. There is nothing in SW cannon to suggest anything remotely realistic about SW space flight. The guiding principles are Cool, Fun and Exciting.

If there's a problem with AFK game play, I think the offenders should be kindly shown the door.

Narmy · Jun 13, 2022

This has been passed long to the Devs with ideas for implementation etc if i ever hear anythign back i'll let you know

Cyclopeus · Jun 13, 2022

Idea for fuel expenditure rate: 1 fuel cell gets you 1 launch.

One fuel cell gets you one trip into space, and it lasts as long as you're up there, or as short as you're up there. I'm imagining loading a pack of fuel cells into the reactor, like the ordinance or counter measures, as others have said above. Maybe a 2-3 use cell pack could be crafted at novice artisan so they are more available. Bigger 10-12 use packs would be crafted by shipwright, with the option to experiment and make them even bigger.

Benefits:

It's much easier to implement than designing a complex, beautiful system to represent fuel consumption rates vs rate of speed, etc. Those systems proposed above are magnificent and genius, but they're more that what we need.
It's easy for new players to understand
There's no running out of fuel when you're in space. So there's also no need to fiddle with the space station code to add refuel options.
Simple, arguably the least fiddly way to implement fuel.
Includes shipwrights and basic crafters in the fuel system.
Travel could simply use one fuel cell.

Drawbacks:

It's a bit of an abstraction. Real fuel doesn't work this way.
We're missing the opportunity to design something deeply complex and satisfying.
If you launch into space, then realize you forgot your lunch and go back, you've wasted a whole fuel cell and have to spend another to launch again.

Narmy · Jun 13, 2022

As stated before this has been taken to the Devs with ideas for the implementation of this system.

renegadeis · Jun 21, 2022

oh wow how about fuel for a speeder as well as decay (itv already have said fuel), if you use a vehicle it must go to a garage and fill up with fuel , if i use a harvester in need s main and energy . vehicles has to use a petrochem supplied by an artisan , if people want to move around a planet quicker than walking , pet mount must be fed regular and rested frequently.

RoHRemis · Jun 21, 2022

renegadeis said:
oh wow how about fuel for a speeder as well as decay (itv already have said fuel), if you use a vehicle it must go to a garage and fill up with fuel , if i use a harvester in need s main and energy . vehicles has to use a petrochem supplied by an artisan , if people want to move around a planet quicker than walking , pet mount must be fed regular and rested frequently.

Well speeders have decay, so a mechanic is already there

Proximityalert · Jun 21, 2022

Fuelrats already exist in Elite Dangerous, so why not here by adding refuel command (similar to jumpstart)? I like the Idea, and the effect it might have on the game.

juspar · Aug 19, 2022

I like the idea, but I gotta say - as a shipwright - that buying it from one of us is not a sink at all. You'd want to pay the chassis broker or some other NPC that could remove the creds from the game. Add in varying cost/quality fuels based on chassis and I think you're good to go.

Narmy · Aug 22, 2022

A proposal was taken to the Devs about this.

Chervil · Aug 23, 2022

DJGonk said:
for a system that more casual star wars fans has never been an issue in the star wars universe

We have seen this exactly once, to my knowledge, where casual fans could have noticed - The Last Jedi, when they are running away from the First Order ships and slowly start running out of fuel so they can't keep out of range.
It was part of the ticking clock that was supposed to heighten the tension (but really just made me hate the amount of time "wasted" on the casino planet when they should have been in more of a hurry).

That aside, I know that this proposal has been "taken to the Devs", as we are reminded, but since it is still "Open" I feel that means it is still open for discussion.

Personally I am not a fan of a fuel system for the basic fact that it is one extra layer of frustration to the space game and will be one more thing to turn off newer pilots.

I see no need for an "extra" credit sink, when there are already several things being done to stem the flow of "space credits" into the economy.

However, as I mentioned above, if it is implemented, then it is still canonically "starwarsy and iconic".

DJGonk · Aug 23, 2022

Chervil said:
Personally I am not a fan of a fuel system for the basic fact that it is one extra layer of frustration to the space game and will be one more thing to turn off newer pilots.

This is my main point of concern. This is certainly a system that would not only require a great deal of tuning to ensure its balanced right, but also dev time which is a very valuable and finite resource. Should it be dedicated to implementing a new system that would more than likely just turn new players away from space?

Another matter to bare in mind with this player voice is the time in which it was created as well as the state of the space community at the time. When this was written, there were egregious accounts of players AFK farming in space for millions of credits every hour. This PV was written as a potential system to counteract this AFKing. However since then, Restoration has implemented its anti-AFK and macro-dump systems in order to curb AFKing across the board. Since this implementation, it would seem there has been a dramatic drop in this activity, possibly negating the need for this PV. Of course I may be incorrect, the space community is pretty much all greek to me for the most part lol

juspar · Aug 24, 2022

Chervil said:
I see no need for an "extra" credit sink, when there are already several things being done to stem the flow of "space credits" into the economy.

This is my point of concern

CatoNovus · Aug 24, 2022

What about hyperspace fuel? That would still allow you to do anything within the system you're in, but to make a jump, you need hyperspace fuel.

DJGonk · Aug 24, 2022

CatoNovus said:
What about hyperspace fuel? That would still allow you to do anything within the system you're in, but to make a jump, you need hyperspace fuel.

At best i could see this using the heavy fuel cells like ITVs, but that still falls into the same trap of yet another hurdle for new players to overcome who may not be familiar with the system and how Restoration has customized things to it's own flavor. And Im almost certain there would be a mass influx of players submitting support tickets because they are do not know why they can no longer jump to hyperspace, not to mention all the new players that would be turned off by space the moment they realize they cant jump system to system due to some arbitrary system that was put in place to prevent an issue that was addressed in a previous patch.

Vadarios · Aug 29, 2022

Here's a thought: IF you're going to make pilots have to pay for using their ships, make the shuttle times much longer, and make sure that you can only travel from one planet to a connected planet.

There are enough aces out there with POB ships. Might even give incentive to group up for traveling etc. I see a lot of "smack the pilots" in here with incentives NOT to be a pilot. "Lets make it expensive to fly a ship" fine... Make pilots NEEDED. Put the interplanetary shuttle on an hour timer. That way you make players need to go to a pilot with a ship to carry them to the next starport.

And frankly I ain't rich like everyone says. I don't farm parts like people are talking about. I don't suck down a million credits an hour like people talk about. Making space more expensive wouldn't stop the farming. I believe it would encourage a lot more pilots to go parts farming just to keep up with the ones who do. I'd certainly start farming parts to sell to the chassis dealer to make the cash for fuel expenses... About the only way I can think to combat the parts farmers is a cap on the number of parts you can sell to the Chassis dealer per day.

juspar · Aug 31, 2022

It's true we don't want to punish pilots for being pilots. But we do need to see sinks that link to the income stream. You don't get income just from launching.

RE is not the source of the credits either, it's where the big space transactions happen, but that's player to player transfers. And those high value transactions happen because the market moves to whatever people can afford, with no relevance to costs.

Aconite · Aug 31, 2022

juspar said:
It's true we don't want to punish pilots for being pilots.

well...

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Implemented Starship Fuel System

RoHRemis

Grogar

Narmy

ShattrdSoldier

Cyclopeus

Narmy

Cyclopeus

Narmy

renegadeis

RoHRemis

Proximityalert

juspar

Narmy

Chervil

DJGonk

juspar

CatoNovus

DJGonk

Vadarios

juspar

Aconite

Development Lead