Rework avoid incap

Rework avoid incap
This idea/suggestion is Open. You can respond to ask questions or discuss the idea and either vote it up or down if you believe it should or should not be implemented, respectively. Popular suggestions and ideas will be considered by the development team to become reality in-game.
This prefix is applied by a Galactic Senator when they are officially sponsoring a post for consideration by the Development Team.
Proposal
Rework "Avoid incap" to be a long cooldown and short duration ability. 15 second duration. 2 Min cooldown. Reduce movement speed reduction to a 25% penalty as a trade off.
Justification
Avoid incap is far too strong in PVE Heroics. Currently it requires no skill and is sustainable for an unhealthy amount of time (Force Feed/Channel/Nimans).
Motivation
The suggested change would elimate the skill trivialising top tier heroics while repurposing it for a meaningful, healthy spot in the current game environment.
Good Day, Ladies and Gentlmen.

Today we are here to discuss the invincible elephant in the room. Avoid incap needs to be reworked.

For too long "AI" has been used to trivialise our hardest PVE content. Tanks rely on a single button press every 25-30 seconds, are then fed force or channel their way out of all damage/skill checks. It's time to make tanking great again.

I propose the ability be reworked to a short duration - high cooldown ability. I think a 15 second duration (half its current duration) and a 2 min cooldown on this ability is reasonable with a buff to the movement speed penalty moving it to 25% or so (open to this number being different). As the ability sits at the master box of Defender, I recognise it needs to be strong, have impact and feel rewarding. However, for too long this has become the solution to all problems in high end content.

I believe my suggestion would change the ability from being an overpowered one-size-fits-all button press to a tool that can be utilised when it is required. Effectively repurposing it to either give healers a break mid-fight or for use as a panic button if things head south fast, putting it in a much healthier spot for game balance.

This will obviously impact PVP/BH too as said changes will significantly reduce the consistency a MDefender can utilitise AI to stay alive. However, as most of the time it merely delays the inevitable, i think the impact should be minimal to outcomes changing. However, i do think that the movement speed penalty should be reduced to balance out the loss the ability would suffer in PVP/BH to help bring it to a healthier place.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk, feel free to flame me in the comments below.
 
this means absolutely nothing , why does it bother you other groups use a master defender with AI for whatever content they want to do ?
A massive AI nerf wont hurt the players you think its going to impact , it will impact those "low skill" players who will then be turned off by yet another nerf to Jedi
Its almost as if you don't want "low skill" players getting any loot from nightmare heroics just so you can feel ELITE
Its not intentional that you can just sit in AI and faceroll nightmare mode. Its intended to be hard...that's the point
 
Its not intentional that you can just sit in AI and faceroll nightmare mode. Its intended to be hard...that's the point
The ability is literally called AVOID INCAPACITATION, might want to make another PV and petition a skill name change from AVOID INCAPACITATION to PARRY & DEFLECT stance :rolleyes:
 
or we can make impactful changes to make the defender buttons feel good to press. I've always thought defender should be more about parry/reflect and not just a damage sponge. Enhance always felt like the damage sponge you can either take less damage or use the power to manipulate shit via buffs/debuffs.

At some point I wanted to make the defender 3 set ability base line, give them saber reflect and give MLS something more focused on actual LS damage not "reflect"
I have no problem with reworking defender. And I'm all for AI being reworked. But it seems crazy to me that the class that is designed for tanking is matched by a single line in enhancer.
 
The ability is literally called AVOID INCAPACITATION, might want to make another PV and petition a skill name change from AVOID INCAPACITATION to PARRY & DEFLECT stance :rolleyes:
There are 3 other difficulty modes you can do the heroic on if you are unable to do it without cheesing it, not sure what to tell you. All instances can be tanked on NM without a MDef using AI, I have done so on a normie and a Jedi with just 3xxx Defender. Just having an MDef makes it easier in the first place, regardless of the skill. If you can't do Nightmare without using AI, you shouldn't be doing Nightmare mode
 
There are 3 other difficulty modes you can do the heroic on if you are unable to do it without cheesing it, not sure what to tell you. All instances can be tanked on NM without a MDef using AI, I have done so on a normie and a Jedi with just 3xxx Defender. Just having an MDef makes it easier in the first place, regardless of the skill. If you can't do Nightmare without using AI, you shouldn't be doing Nightmare mode
But again why does it bother you how other players choose to do their runs and what skills they use and their group makeup ?
IF your group can run nightmare with just a normie and 3xxx defender , then more power to you i guess ?
Also you guys are not making the point you all think you are , because if all you need for nightmare is 3xxx defender then :
-Defender as whole needs a total revamp
-Force armor needs a massive nerf
 
I am assuming doing it with force armor is not *just* force armor either but stacking more layers of damage reduction with things like a low fill wafer or synthsteak and managing the fill bar better

Potentially also having another Jedi battery your force bar if the armor upkeep is too costly.
 
But again why does it bother you how other players choose to do their runs and what skills they use and their group makeup ?
People can do it how they please - using AI to bypass mechanics right now is borderline exploiting, which is why you shouldn't need it - that's my point
 
Down vote , not because of the heroic situation but because i would hate for AI to go the way of Force Cloak
The heroic boss situation is a balance issue but i do agree AI in its current form is way too strong , perhaps a 1min duration, no force regen while active , healing received cut by 75% and a 3 min Cooldown might work
The current version of force cloak is actually very good, its only draw back now (which I think is fitting), is you can no longer force run whilst it is active.
 
I hesitate to even respond because I'm 90% sure you're just trolling. But if all you have is 2xxx defender, you might as well be replaced with a normie tank. Force armor isn't enough by itself to tank on NM.
He isn't trolling, although not been completely truthful either, you need def 2xxx for dominate mind and then FA2 - you tank with FA2
 
Thats
You have to actually pay attention to your force when utilizing force armor to tank. It's not "that strong," as if there's no down-side to it.
That's like saying AI isn't that strong because you have to pay attention to when it's running out to fire off the skill again. It shouldn't even be possible for a x4xxx enhancer to tank on par with a defender imo.
 
Thats

That's like saying AI isn't that strong because you have to pay attention to when it's running out to fire off the skill again. It shouldn't even be possible for a x4xxx enhancer to tank on par with a defender imo.
I think an example will assist you in understanding the difference between the two skills.

ISD torturer boss, with the two droids. An AI defender can tank both and the boss simultaneously, with 0 effort, and without paying attention to their force at all, because they can sit in Niman form, spam their aggro generation ability, and comfortably hold aggro of all three while the group AoE's them down.

A tank with FA2 can at maximum tank 1 droid + the boss, because their force will be absolutely deleted by all 3 attacking them at once. As in, 100 to 0 force in the span of less than a minute. And then you're dead.

You can tank a droid + the boss by skirting around the poison pools and staying in Niman form to keep your force somewhat stable, while channeling to remain in a good place.

If you don't see the difference between these two play styles, or the effort that goes into one compared to the other, I don't know what to tell you.
 
I think an example will assist you in understanding the difference between the two skills.

ISD torturer boss, with the two droids. An AI defender can tank both and the boss simultaneously, with 0 effort, and without paying attention to their force at all, because they can sit in Niman form, spam their aggro generation ability, and comfortably hold aggro of all three while the group AoE's them down.

A tank with FA2 can at maximum tank 1 droid + the boss, because their force will be absolutely deleted by all 3 attacking them at once. As in, 100 to 0 force in the span of less than a minute. And then you're dead.

You can tank a droid + the boss by skirting around the poison pools and staying in Niman form to keep your force somewhat stable, while channeling to remain in a good place.

If you don't see the difference between these two play styles, or the effort that goes into one compared to the other, I don't know what to tell you.
You missed the point. I'm not comparing FA2 to AI. I'm already taking for granted that AI will be nerfed. I only brought up AI as an analogy to show that simply having to watch your force is not a good enough justification for FA2 being that powerful.

I'm comparing FA2 to Master Defender without AI. And my point is that FA2 shouldn't be capable of what MDefender is. Otherwise the defender profession is pointless other than the taunt.
 
I only brought up AI as an analogy to show that simply having to watch your force is not a good enough justification for FA2 being that powerful.
You missed the point in that it's not "that powerful" if you're dead within a minute of engaging a particular boss.

That was the entire point. Anyone rolling MDef will have Force Armor 2 after the AI nerf, because it is a R.E.Q.U.I.R.E.M.E.N.T. for Jedi to run it and tank. Mdefenders running FA2 will have much less difficulty maintaining force than a MEnh tanking with it, because of the inherent defensive bonuses in the Defender tree.

So yes, I'm sorry, but having to pay attention to your limited resources otherwise you *instantly die* is a decent justification for having a powerful ability.

If you would like to argue this, please roll your Jedi into MLS and tank some nightmare runs, and tell me how your force fares in things like the last boss(es) of EK :]
 
You missed the point. I'm not comparing FA2 to AI. I'm already taking for granted that AI will be nerfed. I'm comparing FA2 to Master Defender without AI. And my point is that FA2 shouldn't be capable of what MDefender is. Otherwise the defender profession is pointless other than the taunt.

You missed the point in that it's not "that powerful" if you're dead within a minute of engaging a particular boss.

That was the entire point. Anyone rolling MDef will have Force Armor 2 after the AI nerf, because it is a R.E.Q.U.I.R.E.M.E.N.T. for Jedi to run it and tank. Mdefenders running FA2 will have much less difficulty maintaining force than a MEnh tanking with it, because of the inherent defensive bonuses in the Defender tree.

So yes, I'm sorry, but having to pay attention to your limited resources otherwise you *instantly die* is a decent justification for having a powerful ability.

If you would like to argue this, please roll your Jedi into MLS and tank some nightmare runs, and tell me how your force fares in things like the last boss(es) of EK :]
I haven't tried to tank with just FA2 yet, but it seems to me I'dbe better off with my current build as MPowers generates way more force.

But I have been informed by at least 3 people in this form that they are routinely doing NM heroics with nothing but FA2 and 2xxx defender. No one is arguing that having both MDefender and FA2 isn't the best of both worlds. I'm simply saying on principle that the hardest content in the game to tank should require more than 2xxx defender.
 
I haven't tried to tank with just FA2 yet, but it seems to me I'dbe better off with my current build as MPowers generates way more force.

But I have been informed by at least 3 people in this form that they are routinely doing NM heroics with nothing but FA2 and 2xxx defender. No one is arguing that having both MDefender and FA2 isn't the best of both worlds. I'm simply saying on principle that the hardest content in the game to tank should require more than 2xxx defender.
Okay, I can't speak for other groups, but when we're doing things like EK | even AM NM, we will have the Bmed Jedi feeding force to the tank to ensure that they remain in a healthy place force wise, particularly for things like EK, where you can be hit for 4k within 1 second, so not channeling and maintaining high maximum HP is important.

I don't think anyone that is doing end-game content is saying "I solo tank content with NO ASSISTANCE from my team!" because that is most certainly not the claim that I am making. I have not gone into detail of our group composition, so I suppose this is fair that you're making judgements based simply off of the information you're provided. But tanking with just FA is not something that I feel you can do by yourself, not without channeling yourself into oblivion and getting one-tapped.

But perhaps I'm just a shit Jedi :] I have only been doing this for a month.

EDIT: This further reinforces the point that an AI Jedi would *not* require that assistance from their team to succeed, because they wouldn't have that resource to pay attention to. Just use AI on rotation, Niman, spam aggro, win.
 
Upvoted. Having the skill of refreshing a buff shouldn't be the threshold to run NM heroics.

Also the skill is called "Avoid Incap", I'm ok with avoiding incap once in case of an "oppsie". It could reset your Health to 30-40% and give additional innate armor for a very short period of time for the healer to respond. The buff should drop after the first incap and should go on a cooldown.
It's not called "Avoid all Incaps for 1min"