Create a drowning mechanic to stop the swim teams avoiding death.

The issue isn't that they can't be targeted, its that people who are swimming can't attack. They can be attacked all day, as long as they are in ranged, but they cannot attack back or use abilities (probably can use stim, haven't tested that) but as Aconite said, the game design doesn't include what to do while your character is also performing the swim animation so instead of using the swim as an overwrite animation but you can still attack, you character is just disabled from attacking. You can still be hit and killed while you are in the water, so it makes for a bad situation if you are able to run away from a bounty-hunter or PvP fight and you are going to lose you can just swim as far as you need to in order to be out of attack range. This probably isn't much of an issue except for the rare Jedi running from 1 or more Bounty Hunters, but it CAN happen.

As you said though, an action cost for swimming could be added and once you're out of action you start losing health. It would be a unique system within SWG since no other system works like that in this game, but it should solve the problem.

Fenonix said:

The issue isn't that they can't be targeted, its that people who are swimming can't attack. They can be attacked all day, as long as they are in ranged, but they cannot attack back or use abilities (probably can use stim, haven't tested that) but as Aconite said, the game design doesn't include what to do while your character is also performing the swim animation so instead of using the swim as an overwrite animation but you can still attack, you character is just disabled from attacking. You can still be hit and killed while you are in the water, so it makes for a bad situation if you are able to run away from a bounty-hunter or PvP fight and you are going to lose you can just swim as far as you need to in order to be out of attack range. This probably isn't much of an issue except for the rare Jedi running from 1 or more Bounty Hunters, but it CAN happen.

As you said though, an action cost for swimming could be added and once you're out of action you start losing health. It would be a unique system within SWG since no other system works like that in this game, but it should solve the problem.

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Yep. Very simple. Just need the game to recognize the swimming, probably through animation. I have educated guestimations of game design, and SWG spaghetti code could be way off for my guesstimations. But they made a preview tailor mannequin, this should be simple enough

I would rather push this change away from a "punishing" stance and toward giving incentives to actually stand and fight. Positive reinforcement is more effective than punishment for behavior modification. What if we looked at making a change to encourage the fight through if the BH gets killed by the target they can't hunt the target for 12 hours, if the BH runs (over a certain distance or breaks combat for 5 minutes, shuttles away) it counts as a loss and receive the same lockout, or maybe create a BH leaderboard that shows successful hunts and losses kind of like the prestige system. Offer a form of Jedi prestige or BH trophies. Create a new collection or offer prestige from eating the trophies for Jedi.

I understand this is directed at Jedi, and I feel finding new ways to punish Jedi for not wanting to fight is not the answer. Changes like this feel more counterproductive and like an attempt to dismantle the sandbox feel of the game. I want to look at this from multiple angles and find some interesting solutions or ideas.

fireeubi said:

I would rather push this change away from a "punishing" stance and toward giving incentives to actually stand and fight. Positive reinforcement is more effective than punishment for behavior modification. What if we looked at making a change to encourage the fight through if the BH gets killed by the target they can't hunt the target for 12 hours, if the BH runs (over a certain distance or breaks combat for 5 minutes, shuttles away) it counts as a loss and receive the same lockout, or maybe create a BH leaderboard that shows successful hunts and losses kind of like the prestige system. Offer a form of Jedi prestige or BH trophies. Create a new collection or offer prestige from eating the trophies for Jedi.

I understand this is directed at Jedi, and I feel finding new ways to punish Jedi for not wanting to fight is not the answer. Changes like this feel more counterproductive and like an attempt to dismantle the sandbox feel of the game. I want to look at this from multiple angles and find some interesting solutions or ideas.

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It punishes everyone and puts them in the same playing field as everyone else. Just because the OP might have zeroed out jedi, doesn't mean only jedi exploit this.

Besides, it's a realistic mechanic that just about every game has. Even incentivizing a fight, you'd still be permitting the exploit.

I'm attempting to suggest other ideas or incentives to go along with Aconite saying he wants to have it addressed but unsure if this is the right answer. Was wanting the focus to be on new ideas outside of the OP. I personally do not like the idea of implementing a new mechanic/system for swimming that will have more consequences than just for BH missions. I've needed to afk and intentionally went for a little swim to make sure I wouldn't get killed by NPC's. Let's think outside the OP and box for other solutions.

MageBlade said:

It punishes everyone and puts them in the same playing field as everyone else. Just because the OP might have zeroed out jedi, doesn't mean only jedi exploit this.

Besides, it's a realistic mechanic that just about every game has. Even incentivizing a fight, you'd still be permitting the exploit.

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Agreed. And if we are talking stuff like this...

fireeubi:​

What if we looked at making a change to encourage the fight through if the BH gets killed by the target they can't hunt the target for 12 hours, if the BH runs (over a certain distance or breaks combat for 5 minutes, shuttles away) it counts as a loss and receive the same lockout,

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...how does that in anyway "incentivize" the Jedi to fight? If a jedi knows they are about to be incapped, what happens to the BH is not going to cross his mind. And what about every time the Jedi break combat to speed away or plop a house down? But this is really a conversation for its own thread. The main issue of not being able to engage in combat in the water needs to be addressed.

I've needed to afk and intentionally went for a little swim to make sure I wouldn't get killed by NPC's. Let's think outside the OP and box for other solutions.

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I've never had a problem with going AFK for a brief bit in this game. If I'm in a structure I go to a room with no agro NPCs or, if out in the world , found a spot with no agro NPcs around me.

It was a spitball for other ideas. Y'all are missing the point that Aconite has already said he isn't sure this is the solution but instead just keep doubling down on this idea without offering any other ideas. I will keep thinking and pushing for a better solution using what we currently have access to and hopefully there will be a solution that comes out of it.

fireeubi said:

It was a spitball for other ideas. Y'all are missing the point that Aconite has already said he isn't sure this is the solution but instead just keep doubling down on this idea without offering any other ideas. I will keep thinking and pushing for a better solution using what we currently have access to and hopefully there will be a solution that comes out of it.

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Wrong, he didn't like the animations idea.

Read a little bit before your screenshot on his other post. Your screenshot pushes what I have said even further. What is being suggested isn't as easy as it sounds or they would have already done it. As it stands currently I will not sponsor this.

fireeubi said:

Read a little bit before your screenshot on his other post. Your screenshot pushes what I have said even further. What is being suggested isn't as easy as it sounds or they would have already done it. As it stands currently I will not sponsor this.

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I've commented throughout the suggestion. I already said don't use animations, just use action points when the character starts swimming. You'd realize that if you weren't focused on trying to bash ideas.

I miss where I bashed ideas. Swimming would be an animation or posture change correct? How do you track if the character is swimming, driving over water, or just not touching the ground in general? In the screenshot you posted Aconite says that because you aren't touching the ground it could have other adverse effects. Making combat possible in water isn't easy to do either. What else could be a solution? Ban people for swimming since its exploiting?

fireeubi said:

I miss where I bashed ideas. Swimming would be an animation or posture change correct? How do you track if the character is swimming, driving over water, or just not touching the ground in general? In the screenshot you posted Aconite says that because you aren't touching the ground it could have other adverse effects. Making combat possible in water isn't easy to do either. What else could be a solution? Ban people for swimming since its exploiting?

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Swimming is a thing that already exists, my suggestion didn't say anything about adding an animation. I didn't suggest combat in water.

I’m against introducing any system that works as a detriment to exploring the sandbox.

I support finding ways to incentivize fighting rather than punishing everyone to further coddle bounty hunters.

How does this idea ruin the sandbox experience? Nothing proposed stops a player from swimming or exploring.

Ah yes the true sandbox experience of running into a lake and going linkdead. Give me a break. Coddle bounty hunters, lmao. Do you really believe you should be invincible if you are 100m from the shore, swimming? Do you think that is a reasonable mechanic?

I'm not saying this PV is the solution but this being possible is completely absurd and defending it is comical

Ahamkara said:

Ah yes the true sandbox experience of running into a lake and going linkdead. Give me a break. Coddle bounty hunters, lmao. Do you really believe you should be invincible if you are 100m from the shore, swimming? Do you think that is a reasonable mechanic?

I'm not saying this PV is the solution but this being possible is completely absurd and defending it is comical

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I didn't say it "ruins" the sandbox experience, nor did I defend the escape method, so I would suggest taking more time in reading comprehension before throwing out strawmans. Calm down, senator.

I said I don't support any kind of nerf to players en masse in order to satiate the BH whining. Escaping into water is a symptom, and I'd rather treat the source which is: ALL bounties, not just Jedi, don't have any reason to fight back in a situation where they did not initialize or likely prepare for that specific combat and may be at a disadvantage. There's no reason for them NOT to run. It's a PvP scenario where only one side is rewarded, so why wouldn't the other side try to disengage? Find a way to incentivize not running instead of axing the escape routes one by one. Gunship ITVs, shuttling, FotV all got axed for Jedi recently, and mount up timers after combat or instance exit increased. None of them fixed the core issue. Now swimming is on the menu, and it still won't fix the real problem.

Edit: Hell, we all know drip is the real endgame. Give players a new token if they kill a BH who has an active bounty on them. Vendor has cool cosmetics skins or deco items. Now people have a reason to fight back on their bounties and are more incentivized to get them in the first place so everyone gets more action. Let's see more ideas like that and less "I don't want players to be able to do this anymore" ideas, whatever subject it may be.

Ohmss said:

I didn't say it "ruins" the sandbox experience, nor did I defend the escape method, so I would suggest taking more time in reading comprehension before throwing out strawmans. Calm down, senator.

I said I don't support any kind of nerf to players en masse in order to satiate the BH whining. Escaping into water is a symptom, and I'd rather treat the source which is: ALL bounties, not just Jedi, don't have any reason to fight back in a situation where they did not initialize or likely prepare for that specific combat and may be at a disadvantage. There's no reason for them NOT to run. It's a PvP scenario where only one side is rewarded, so why wouldn't the other side try to disengage? Find a way to incentivize not running instead of axing the escape routes one by one. Gunship ITVs, shuttling, FotV all got axed for Jedi recently, and mount up timers after combat or instance exit increased. None of them fixed the core issue. Now swimming is on the menu, and it still won't fix the real problem.

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The problem is that if you are on the boards you did as you put it initialize for combat at any time and for Jedi at least you are an alpha class with all the advantages tilted your way to start with. Your reward is that you got away and did not die/ghost if you ran and if you stayed the reward was, if you won, that you won. Yes it would be nice to see stuff drop from BH when they lose like the stuff they get for killing Jedi but neither that nor other incentives will change the fact that for Jedi people will still run if they are not wanting to ghost yet. When I take pvp smuggler missions I made a choice and if the BH arrives I either fight or run. If it is Dots I always run. If I let my vis get me on the boards it is a choice even if some do not like the choice it is still a choice and after that choice is made you know 100% that anytime a BH or 3 can appear and attack. If you did not prepare so what? That is also a choice be it a poor choice.

Tyr said:

The problem is that if you are on the boards you did as you put it initialize for combat at any time and for Jedi at least you are an alpha class with all the advantages tilted your way to start with. Your reward is that you got away and did not die/ghost if you ran and if you stayed the reward was, if you won, that you won. Yes it would be nice to see stuff drop from BH when they lose like the stuff they get for killing Jedi but neither that nor other incentives will change the fact that for Jedi people will still run if they are not wanting to ghost yet. When I take pvp smuggler missions I made a choice and if the BH arrives I either fight or run. If it is Dots I always run. If I let my vis get me on the boards it is a choice even if some do not like the choice it is still a choice and after that choice is made you know 100% that anytime a BH or 3 can appear and attack. If you did not prepare so what? That is also a choice be it a poor choice.

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If you want to argue the semantics of "initializing" pvp, I guess we could philosophize on if our bounties begin at conception or delivery.

The fact is, only one side chooses when the actual fight starts. Yes with a new system people will still run, and they should have that option, but don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. If enough are incentivized to stay and fight then a new system has merit, which would require the rewards of the fight to be enticing enough. "Your reward is that you get to continue to live, but we will try to kill you again later." I didn't realize we were talking politics! Regardless, if running gives the best chance of this supposed reward for the attacked side, then that will be the default option. The reward needs to be better than that. It obviously isn't working now. The fix shouldn't be making it harder to run like it has been every time so far. Players have resorted to water escapes because they're running out of options. Cutting that out will likely only lead to more extreme behavior and another exploit that needs fixing, or those players will just stop playing as much once they're out of options.

Maybe there are more options to mitigate this behavior as well that are not direct nerfs. Ex. Once you're on the bounty board, depending on your master professions you can engage in an activity that will enable a notice when an online player is holding your bounty (i.e. something like Diablo 2's hostile player notification). Smugglers could slice BH terminals, officer PvP ranks could pay a recruiter to notify them, Jedi could mind-trick a bartender, etc.

Balancing is always better received when nobody is pushed down. OP's solution pushes EVERYBODY down in an effort to stop the specific actions of one group. That should be the last resort. Bring the necessary parties up to make that behavior unnecessary or an insignificant outlier.

Players have resorted to water escapes because they're running out of options.

You are wrong. This has always been around even before Resto. It has nothing to do with options. Question for you since you want to get "everyone" here. What about those that just want to run? Should we give them incentives for escaping without using water? Realisticlly this is a problem that has no good solutions and is not occurring very often but blows up when it does. As for your solutions umm lot of work for another way to avoid them when it is not needed as you already know someone has it. You are also missing the point that none of your suggestions will fix. The Jedi piece run because they don't want to ghost yet. That is pretty much it. When they are ready they stand and fight or let themselves get killed. Your incentives will not change that.

Tyr said:

Players have resorted to water escapes because they're running out of options.

You are wrong. This has always been around even before Resto. It has nothing to do with options. Question for you since you want to get "everyone" here. What about those that just want to run? Should we give them incentives for escaping without using water? Realisticlly this is a problem that has no good solutions and is not occurring very often but blows up when it does. As for your solutions umm lot of work for another way to avoid them when it is not needed as you already know someone has it. You are also missing the point that none of your suggestions will fix. The Jedi piece run because they don't want to ghost yet. That is pretty much it. When they are ready they stand and fight or let themselves get killed. Your incentives will not change that.

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Yes, it occurred, but it's become central subject matter due to removals of so many other options increasing its use. As I said, some will still want to run, and they should be able to. Right? You said yourself depending on the hunter you choose to run every time. Do you want to be forced to fight Dots? What's the next target for escape nerfing, because as long as players can ever get away the BHs will still complain. Is the final endgame here that once you get hit by a BH attack that a 50m Thunderdome appears around you where two men enter, one man leaves? Or I guess up to four if the BH has buddies.

At some point they need to add a reason not to run, and there is nothing for that in place right now.

"Would you, could you run in space? Hope that you don't find an ace!"
"Would you, could you run on land? No other players may lend a hand!"
"Would you, could you run on water? You can't clap back against manslaughter!"
"Would you, could you flight of vet? No parties joining this tête-à-tête!"
"Would you, could you ITV? Escape avenues, we cannot see!"
"Would you, could you shuttle away? You will not keep this hunter at bay!"
"Would you, could you get a vehicle repair? No you can't, mechanic won't dare!"
"Would you, could you use force powers? Only to see how Vader devours!"
"Would you, could you PvP? There is no choice, soon you'll see..."